# Should the US lower its immigration numbers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488 "2011-01-21T20:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/101 "2011-02-07T07:37:39Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > That’s just golden. An opinion piece about protecting the environment from illegals, written by a flaky AGW denier who would happily clear-cut or burn every national park in this country if it would even slightly benefit a corporation. Next up, Dr. Dobson on how illegal immigration is preventing gay marriage from becoming legal. You didn’t actually read the opinion piece, it’s about the declining education standards in California. > [@DMC](#): > > His point was that those who are the most against opening up the immigration flood-gates are typically also those who are against affirmative action, such as yourself. Well, it doesn’t make much sense to recruit people who need special standards to compete? That doesn’t seem like the best way to maintain your economic competitiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/102 "2011-02-07T14:21:14Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Only if you have very strange definitions of majority and minority, but it’s not the first time I’ve seen words acquire strange new meanings in the mouths of lefties. You may wish to update your dictionary to include the word _plurality_. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/103 "2011-02-07T14:35:49Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > His point was that those who are the most against opening up the immigration flood-gates are typically also those who are against affirmative action, such as yourself. They are also those who have the most to lose from both mass immigration and affirmative action. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/104 "2011-02-07T14:37:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You may wish to update your dictionary to include the word _plurality_. Silly word games are all you’ve got? Answer this: What can whites possibly gain from giving up their majority status? How could that possibly be a good thing for us? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/105 "2011-02-07T14:44:49Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Silly word games are all you’ve got? Well, since you seem to think that English fluency is all that stands between you and hordes of Mexican job-stealers, I figured you’d appreciate the tip. > [@](#): > > What can whites possibly gain from giving up their majority status? How could that possibly be a good thing for us? Is that how you view every event? “Good for me”, or “bad for me”? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/106 "2011-02-07T15:12:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is that how you view every event? “Good for me”, or “bad for me”? Well, it is hard to persuade people to do things against their best short-term interest, after all. So yeah, if you want people to do something, you should probably find a way to coach it as good for them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/107 "2011-02-07T15:14:56Z")
But I don’t want him to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/108 "2011-02-07T15:36:30Z")
So if I understand Lonesome view it’s “Whites are on top, whites like being on top and I’m white, so I’m against anything that will risk my being in top position.” Which works great for convincing himself and some other whites but I’m not sure how that works as an objective argument for anyone else. There might be something to it if you follow it up with. “The reason whites are on top is because they are better than everyone else and so deserve to be on top.” But then this argument is not much of an improvement over arguments made prior to 1861. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/109 "2011-02-07T19:01:22Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So if I understand Lonesome view it’s “Whites are on top, whites like being on top and I’m white, so I’m against anything that will risk my being in top position.” Which works great for convincing himself and some other whites but I’m not sure how that works as an objective argument for anyone else. There might be something to it if you follow it up with. “The reason whites are on top is because they are better than everyone else and so deserve to be on top.” But then this argument is not much of an improvement over arguments made prior to 1861. Okay, one more time. Why should we do something when it is clearly not in our own best interest to do it? I keep asking what we’re supposed to gain from mass immigration and granting preferential treatment to minorities. All I get is either a lot of happy talk about how beautiful diversity is or a lot of snarling about what an evil racist I am. Your post is an example of the latter. So I’m going to give you a chance to redeem yourself. Tell me what benefits whites will gain from all this. Will we have more and better jobs? Will education improve? Will the streets be safer? Will we have better hospitals, roads, less racial tension? Will the courts and prisons be less overloaded? Will there be less poverty? Will housing be cheaper and better? Will minorities ever voluntarily give up special privileges such as affirmative action? I’m immensely skeptical of all of that. Show me you can give me an actual answer and not just snarl about racism. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/110 "2011-02-07T19:06:40Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Silly word games are all you’ve got? Answer this: What can whites possibly gain from giving up their majority status? How could that possibly be a good thing for us? Immigration or not, whites will lose their majority. I dunno know why. We must not fuck as often or something. Regardless, even if immigration stopped entirely today, whites will lose their majority in the near future. Considering that, which is wiser; acknowledging as much and treating everyone fairly or acting as if having brown skin was leprosy and pissing off the groups that will someday out number you in the not so distant future regardless? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/111 "2011-02-07T19:09:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, since you seem to think that English fluency is all that stands between you and hordes of Mexican job-stealers, I figured you’d appreciate the tip. Do you deny that immigrants take jobs from citizens? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is that how you view every event? “Good for me”, or “bad for me”? Answer the question and spare me your cheap moralizing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/112 "2011-02-07T19:16:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you deny that immigrants take jobs from citizens? Sure I do. Barring immigration isn’t going to result in some kind of employment renaissance for Americans. It’s just going to leave a lot of dishes unwashed and fruit unpicked. > [@](#): > > Answer the question and spare me your cheap moralizing. There’s no point in answering the question. White people will lose their majority status within the next hundred years no matter what, so frankly it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference what’s in it for them. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/113 "2011-02-07T19:18:07Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Immigration or not, whites will lose their majority. I dunno know why. We must not fuck as often or something. Regardless, even if immigration stopped entirely today, whites will lose their majority in the near future. Considering that, which is wiser; acknowledging as much and treating everyone fairly or acting as if having brown skin was leprosy and pissing off the groups that will someday out number you in the not so distant future regardless? No, it is not inevitable. The problem is mainly uncontrolled immigration caused by insane immigration laws and a severe lack of enforcement of the laws we do have. Stop chain immigration, deny jobs and welfare benefits to illegal aliens, punish employers who knowingly hire illegals, together with a few other measures could easily put a stop to it. And I’ve noticed that “treating people fairly” generally means treating whites unfairly. It also seems to need an awful lot of bureaucracy and lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/114 "2011-02-07T19:30:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure I do. Barring immigration isn’t going to result in some kind of employment renaissance for Americans. It’s just going to leave a lot of dishes unwashed and fruit unpicked. (Shrug) You should talk to my nephew who’s been trying to find a job in IT for quite some time now. It seems that employers prefer to hire much cheaper indentured labor from India than American citizens. You might also talk to my younger brother and my brother’s brother in law. The construction work that they depended on has basically been taken over by immigrants, most of them illegal. Over the last twelve months, the immigrant labor force increased 2.5% while the native born work force declined by .8%. The number of employed immigrants rose by 838,000. The number of employed native born declined by 48,000. So, yeah, I’d say it’s pretty goddamned obvious that immigrants are taking jobs away from citizens. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There’s no point in answering the question. White people will lose their majority status within the next hundred years no matter what, so frankly it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference what’s in it for them. Assuming the United States is still around in a hundred years. There is no reason the US will not go the way of the USSR. And as I noted in the post above, the decline of the white population is not inevitable. But at least you’ve admitted this is going to be a disaster for whites. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/115 "2011-02-07T19:33:59Z")
But you don’t distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, so what does it matter? You just don’t want any more nonwhites. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/116 "2011-02-07T19:41:10Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > No, it is not inevitable. The problem is mainly uncontrolled immigration caused by insane immigration laws and a severe lack of enforcement of the laws we do have. Stop chain immigration, deny jobs and welfare benefits to illegal aliens, punish employers who knowingly hire illegals, together with a few other measures could easily put a stop to it. And I’ve noticed that “treating people fairly” generally means treating whites unfairly. It also seems to need an awful lot of bureaucracy and lawsuits. Both blacks and hispanics have more children on average than whites do. Which has nothing at all to do with immigration, so your immigration ideas would do nothing to change that. By the way, I haven’t really seen anything to show how this is a bad thing anyway. Whites won’t be the majority in the near future. So? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/117 "2011-02-08T00:04:05Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Both blacks and hispanics have more children on average than whites do. Which has nothing at all to do with immigration, so your immigration ideas would do nothing to change that. > > By the way, I haven’t really seen anything to show how this is a bad thing anyway. Whites won’t be the majority in the near future. So? Godix, The problem is that, as Peter Drucker pointed out, a large number of the migrants are _qualified for yesterday’s jobs, which are the kinds of jobs that are going away"_. [Drucker on outsourcing, India and China](http://www.goodnewsindia.com/index.php/Supplement/article/371/P0/) Presumably you are aware of the ‘achievement gap’ - basically Asians and Europeans are considerably outperforming african american & hispanic students. As education becomes increasingly important to get a technical job it is a significant problem if the majority of the population are underachieving academically. [Redirect Notice](http://www.google.co.nz/url?q=http://www.mckinsey.com/app_media/images/page_images/offices/socialsector/pdf/achievement_gap_report.pdf&sa=U&ei=-4hQTY2rHpK2sAP46ZytBw&ved=0CCEQFjAI&sig2=cddHy9f6z9D7KzxQ32xVYw&usg=AFQjCNF6pu1p-4NGG2cP8CMd9GR4747tdA) You may not have read this, but it summarises the problem in the context of California. > [@](#): > > For a closer glimpse of what’s in store for California, look at the Los Angeles Unified School District, the largest in California and the second largest in the country. Of its roughly 700,000 students, almost three-quarters are Hispanic, 8.9 percent are white, and 11.2 percent are black. More than half of the Latino students (about 300,000) are “English learners” and, depending on whether you believe the district or independent scholars, anywhere between a third and a half drop out of high school, following significant attrition in middle school. A recent study by UC Santa Barbara’s California Dropout Research Project estimates that high-school dropouts in 2007 alone will cost the state $24.2 billion in future economic losses. [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/118 "2011-02-08T00:14:52Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Both blacks and hispanics have more children on average than whites do. Which has nothing at all to do with immigration, so your immigration ideas would do nothing to change that. > > By the way, I haven’t really seen anything to show how this is a bad thing anyway. Whites won’t be the majority in the near future. So? Godix, Sorry, just for further clarity, here is a comment from the McKinsey Report on The _Economic Impact of the Achievement Gap in America’s Schools_: > [@](#): > > As a greater proportion of blacks and Latinos enter the student population in the United States, **the racial achievement gap, if not addressed, will almost certainly act as a drag on overall US educational and economic performance in the years ahead.** The two most populous states, California and Texas, are already “minority-majority” states: along with New Mexico and Hawaii, the population in these states is less than 50 percent European ancestry. The student population of the United States as a whole will reach this status by 2023.11 > **[Redirect Notice](http://www.google.co.nz/url?q=http:%2F%2Fwww.mckinsey.com%2Fapp_media%2Fimages%2Fpage_images%2Foffices%2Fsocialsector%2Fpdf%2Fachievement_gap_report.pdf&sa=U&ei=-4hQTY2rHpK2sAP46ZytBw&ved=0CCEQFjAI&sig2=cddHy9f6z9D7KzxQ32xVYw&usg=AFQjCNF6pu1p-4NGG2cP8CMd9GR4747tdA)** ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/119 "2011-02-08T03:44:59Z")
First off, the achievement gap between races is not new. It is a long standing issue. However, the important thing to note, [the achievement gap is shrinking](http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/main2008/2009479.asp#section3). The racial achievement gap will act as a drag on the economy, as well as a whole host of other issues, if it isn’t fixed. Fortunately, it is being fixed. Slowly, granted, but since 1975, hispanics have narrowed the reading gap by 3 to 13 points and math by 7 to 13 points. (range because of different age groups. Improvements for blacks ignored because it has nothing to do with immigration) Secondly, the issue of education is far far broader than just how much immigration there is. Especially in California. It’s fucked up financial issues with propositions greatly limiting what the state can do are a lot more responsible for California’s problems than immigrants are. Even the NPR article you linked, which is actually astoundingly bad considering it’s from NPR - there are many mistakes in it’s reasoning if I wanted to point by point rebut the thing, kinda covered that. Quoting from it: > [@](#): > > The mediocre education system, along with the unfriendly business climate and confiscatory tax regime, is driving educated, middle-class Californians out of the state. Between 2000 and 2005, more people with college degrees left California than came in, according to research by the Hewlett Foundation. If the educated middle class leaves an area, then of course school performance will drop. Only the poor and uneducated are there. The solution is to entice the educated middle class to stay. And that is a political problem that covers a lot of issues, of which immigration is a fairly small part. Also it’s worth noting the NPR article, even with it’s distortions, is about ILLEGAL immigrants. This thread is about LEGAL immigrants. There is a lot of difference between the two. For one thing, of course illegal immigrants don’t integrate well. If they tried, they would greatly increase the chance of getting caught and deported. Legal immigrants don’t have that worry, so have more opportunities available to improve and integrate. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/120 "2011-02-08T04:52:27Z")
> [@godix](#): > > The racial achievement gap will act as a drag on the economy, as well as a whole host of other issues, if it isn’t fixed. Fortunately, it is being fixed. Slowly, granted, but since 1975, hispanics have narrowed the reading gap by 3 to 13 points and math by 7 to 13 points. (range because of different age groups. Improvements for blacks ignored because it has nothing to do with immigration) > > Secondly, the issue of education is far far broader than just how much immigration there is. Especially in California. > > If the educated middle class leaves an area, then of course school performance will drop. Only the poor and uneducated are there. The solution is to entice the educated middle class to stay. And that is a political problem that covers a lot of issues, of which immigration is a fairly small part. > > Also it’s worth noting the NPR article, even with it’s distortions, is about ILLEGAL immigrants. This thread is about LEGAL immigrants. There is a lot of difference between the two. For one thing, of course illegal immigrants don’t integrate well. If they tried, they would greatly increase the chance of getting caught and deported. Legal immigrants don’t have that worry, so have more opportunities available to improve and integrate. According to ‘Closing the achievement gap: the impact of standards-based education reform’ the gap between hispanic and white students at any age was not significantly different between 1977 and 1999 (see page 10 below). Also, by continuing to bring in migrants with the traditional mexican values presumably you reduce the prospect of assimilation? > **[Closing the achievement gap the impact of standards-based education reform on...](https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=3TOZD-lav9gC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=Hispanic%2Bachievement%2Bgap%2Bus&source=bl&ots=VaNL6Cov2N&sig=AJ78pROXrGgAnboi6yc6u-ptci8&hl=en)** Also, the Coleman Report in 1965 showed about a 2/3 standard deviation difference between the groups which is consistent with the 2001 meta analysis of Philip L Roth (0.72 standard deviations difference). Roth, P. L., Bevier, C. A., Bobko, P., Switzer III, F. S. & Tyler, P. (2001) Ethnic group differences in cognitive ability in employment and educational settings: a meta-analysis. Personnel Psychology 54, 297–330. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=7)