# Should the US lower its immigration numbers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488 "2011-01-21T20:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/141 "2011-02-09T14:07:29Z")
> [@godix](#): > > As Zimbabwe or South Africa show, trying to keep one group in power at the expense of another doesn’t produce good results. I’d rather see all people treated equally and fairly than I would to see Hispanics treated like shit now, then whites treated like shit in the future. Amen to that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/142 "2011-02-09T14:23:07Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > I am Mexican and find the racist filth posted by lonsesome offensive to say the least. I am not sure why this is allowed. I apologize to the other participants but not to someone who posts such disgusting and undeniably racist garbage. I know you are Mexican and I can see you were offended. You’re not allowed to insult other people even if you’re offended, and if you see a post you think is against the rules, just report it. I don’t think **LonesomePolecat** ’s comments were “allowed” since I also warned him. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/143 "2011-02-09T15:37:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I know you are Mexican and I can see you were offended. You’re not allowed to insult other people even if you’re offended, and if you see a post you think is against the rules, just report it. I don’t think **LonesomePolecat** ’s comments were “allowed” since I also warned him. In the interest of educating us, would you mind pointing to the passage(s) by **LonesomePoleca** t that ran afoul of the rules? I see that **CBEscapee** called **Lonesome** a “simple minded racist”, which is outside the rules of GD, but I’m not seeing **Lonesome’s** infraction. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/144 "2011-02-09T15:43:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > In the interest of educating us, would you mind pointing to the passage(s) by **LonesomePoleca** t that ran afoul of the rules? I see that **CBEscapee** called **Lonesome** a “simple minded racist”, which is outside the rules of GD, but I’m not seeing **Lonesome’s** infraction. Thanks. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > C’mon, admit it. What you really want is for the Anglos to be driven into the sea. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You hate Anglos. Admit it. If you have further questions, please take them to ATMB. That goes for **CBEscapee** as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/145 "2011-02-09T16:00:17Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > I am Mexican and find the racist filth posted by lonsesome offensive to say the least. I am not sure why this is allowed. I apologize to the other participants but not to someone who posts such disgusting and undeniably racist garbage. If you start a Pit thread on it, do link to it here so others may follow. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/146 "2011-02-09T22:36:32Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Did you read the very first line of your link? “Although overall performance gaps appear to have narrowed in instances, they still remain a reality in American schools.” I said the gap is narrowing, not that the gap was gone. Your cite also says the gap is narrowing but not gone. I’m not seeing a disagreement here… I think the disagreement is that I think the Coleman Report data from 1965 & Roth report suggest that the gap is unlikely to close much. And the extent that it will close probably isn’t helped by having continuous inflows of people with little education, language, cultural differences etc. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/147 "2011-02-10T03:15:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If you have further questions, please take them to ATMB. That goes for **CBEscapee** as well. I just did. I look forward to your response. > **[Marley23, can you clarify something.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=596566)** > > In the “Lower Immigration Numbers” thread, you gave both LonesomePolecat and CBEscapee a warning. I was reading that thread and saw where CBEscapee ran afoul of the GD rules, with this: \[QUOTE=CBEscapee\] You are a simple minded racist. There is no... ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/148 "2011-02-10T05:59:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **LonesomePolecat** and **CBEscapee** , you’re both way out of line for Great Debates. This is a formal warning for both of you. I assume, then, you’re going to give a warning to godix for the following remarks? > [@](#): > > I’ve been trying really hard not to just call you a racist and dismiss you as a moron. Statements like this really really make this difficult though… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/149 "2011-02-10T07:03:05Z")
> [@godix](#): > > I’ve been trying really hard not to just call you a racist and dismiss you as a moron. Statements like this really really make this difficult though… Calling posters “racist” and “moron” is not appropriate in Great Debates. (And the use of conditionals or “I’ve been trying not to call you” has never been permitted as a defense against the charge of name calling.) This is a Warning to refrain from doing this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/150 "2011-02-10T07:05:16Z")
**LonesomePolecat** , if you see a violation, report it. Do not drag it out into the thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/151 "2011-02-10T20:32:49Z")
I think this thread has melted down and should be locked. That, of course, is a decision for the mods to make. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/152 "2011-02-10T21:19:00Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Okay, one more time. Why should we do something when it is clearly not in our own best interest to do it? > > I keep asking what we’re supposed to gain from mass immigration and granting preferential treatment to minorities. All I get is either a lot of happy talk about how beautiful diversity is or a lot of snarling about what an evil racist I am. Your post is an example of the latter. > > So I’m going to give you a chance to redeem yourself. Tell me what benefits whites will gain from all this. Will we have more and better jobs? Will education improve? Will the streets be safer? Will we have better hospitals, roads, less racial tension? Will the courts and prisons be less overloaded? Will there be less poverty? Will housing be cheaper and better? Will minorities ever voluntarily give up special privileges such as affirmative action? > > I’m immensely skeptical of all of that. > > Show me you can give me an actual answer and not just snarl about racism. I’m not going to argue that white’s lot will improve if they lose their majority status, I was more saying that this is not a convincing objective argument. If the main argument is what is good for you, it will convince those like you but not anyone else, unless you can indicate why what is best for you is the objective good. As it stands I don’t see Latino culture as being inherently inferior to Anglo culture (even though as an Anglo I am more comfortable with Anglo culture). And so don’t see any moral objection to Latino culture being on the rise as Anglo culture is on the wane. If you were in the minority you would presumably be arguing in favor of the rise of Latino culture and Against the rise of Anglo culture. With a rant such as: [QUOTE= Alternative universe LonesomeCoyote] I do not fear, sir, I object. I object to Latin-American culture being suppressed by the by Anglo-American culture. I object to my people being made second class citizens in the country our Latin American ancestors founded. I object to the fact that I can’t get alicenses, insurance or proper registration, and so jhave to flee when they get in an accident, often the result of some Anglo’s drunkeness. I object to the fact that I can’t get a job due to an accident of my birth. I object to the fact that I have to live in shanty towns because all of the Anglo’s take all of the land for their Mac Mansions that only one or two people live in. I object to the mass protests against my existence. I object to not being given the same rights as citizens. I object to not having basics services in a language I can understand. I object to teachers ignoring my children because it will take too much time and spending it on those Anglos who have so much already. I object to the money that will have to be spent to educate your children, money which should have gone to educate ours. I object to illegal Anglos being educated in our colleges and universities when Latinos are being turned away. I object to illegal Anglos going to emergency rooms for routine medical care and then skipping out on the bills, and I object to the closing of emergency rooms because no one is willing to spend the money. I object to Anglo women pregnant out of wedlock, in my county who expect Latinos to pay the bills for their little bastards. I object to Anglos taking work away from Latinos in the middle of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. I object to Anglos disrupting Cinco de Mayo parades. I object to the open, vicious hostility that many Anglos in the United States, show to Latinos. I object to the low-level ethnic cleansing that Anglos are committing against Latinos in Los Angeles. I object to a Anglos along the border with Mexico declaring open season on Latinos. I object to the massive, mind boggling hypocrisy of the US government complaining loudly about America’s treatment of Mexican illegals when their own treatment of illegals in the US is absolutely atrocious. [/QUOTE] (Note I’m not endorsing the above rant as valid. I’m just trying to form an equal and opposite rant which I view in no higher esteem as yours) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/153 "2011-02-10T21:33:37Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I’m not going to argue that white’s lot will improve if they lose their majority status, I was more saying that this is not a convincing objective argument. It is when you discover that there is a significant gap in academic achievement levels. As I attempted to summarise above, low skill immigration should be reduced otherwise you can expect: - reduced economic competitiveness (see data on the achievement gaps & educational outcomes above) - increased carbon footprint as the US population grows - increased crime as high school drop outs are more at risk of joining gangs, becoming involved in crime - increased demand on welfare as low skill jobs become outsourced or replaced by technology. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/154 "2011-02-10T21:46:29Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I’m not going to argue that white’s lot will improve if they lose their majority status, I was more saying that this is not a convincing objective argument. If the main argument is what is good for you, it will convince those like you but not anyone else, unless you can indicate why what is best for you is the objective good. As it stands I don’t see Latino culture as being inherently inferior to Anglo culture (even though as an Anglo I am more comfortable with Anglo culture). And so don’t see any moral objection to Latino culture being on the rise as Anglo culture is on the wane. If you were in the minority you would presumably be arguing in favor of the rise of Latino culture and Against the rise of Anglo culture. With a rant such as: > > (Note I’m not endorsing the above rant as valid. I’m just trying to form an equal and opposite rant which I view in no higher esteem as yours) Your pseudo-rant fails as a rebuttal because it ignores one point: LonesomeCoyote is ignoring the fact that he is an illegal and has no right to expect any of the things he’s demanding. He’s not even entitled to be here in the first place. And the inferiority or superiority of one culture over another is beside the point. I want my own people to survive and prosper, and to do that they must have their own homeland. By my own people, I mean the British and Germans who established this country, and the European immigrants who assimilated into it after immigrating. That’s impossible if we do not reserve for ourselves the right to decide who can and can’t come here. A group which does not put its own interests ahead of the interests of other groups will have a severe disadvantage in competing with them. And, as I’ve noted before, whites are the only people who are seriously expected not to care about race. Expecting whites to be indifferent to their own survival as a race is tantamount to a demand that they commit racial suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/155 "2011-02-11T02:29:19Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > With a rant such as: > > (Note I’m not endorsing the above rant as valid. I’m just trying to form an equal and opposite rant which I view in no higher esteem as yours) A nation is defined by its people. If that rant were to come from the mouth of a member of the historical native Hispanic population from a Hispanic country that was being invaded by Anglos, it would be perfectly valid. The people of that country would have every right to feel that way–_it’s their damn country._ They would have every right to make Spanish their official national language, teach exclusively about Hispanic culture in their schools, completely ban immigration of Anglos and deport the Anglos who were already there. But of course, we’re talking about the United States of America. And despite what both the cultural left and neoconservatives believe, America is–from its origins as a group of colonies of Great Britain, through its very Founding, through all of history up until the insane, suicidal immigration act of 1965–a white, Western European country with a Christian, Anglo-centric culture, and we have every right to maintain it as such. _It’s our damn country._ I know you don’t _want_ us to, but it’s not impossible; the Hispanicization, Islamization, or general third-worldization of America so fervently desired by you cultural leftists is far from the foregone conclusion you keep claiming it to be. The only reason we haven’t stopped it is that the majority doesn’t realize how much is at stake. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/156 "2011-02-11T02:52:12Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > A nation is defined by its people. If that rant were to come from the mouth of a member of the historical native Hispanic population from a Hispanic country that was being invaded by Anglos, it would be perfectly valid. The people of that country would have every right to feel that way–_it’s their damn country._ They would have every right to make Spanish their official national language, teach exclusively about Hispanic culture in their schools, completely ban immigration of Anglos and deport the Anglos who were already there. > > But of course, we’re talking about the United States of America. And despite what both the cultural left and neoconservatives believe, America is–from its origins as a group of colonies of Great Britain, through its very Founding, through all of history up until the insane, suicidal immigration act of 1965–a white, Western European country with a Christian, Anglo-centric culture, and we have every right to maintain it as such. _It’s our damn country._ I know you don’t _want_ us to, but it’s not impossible; the Hispanicization, Islamization, or general third-worldization of America so fervently desired by you cultural leftists is far from the foregone conclusion you keep claiming it to be. The only reason we haven’t stopped it is that the majority doesn’t realize how much is at stake. You mean like the people of Pico Rivera in Los Angeles? https://www.youtube.com/embed/8kbjhTFYWLA?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&start=247 Lets be less inflammatory, Latinos do not reject American culture and they have also the right to also assimilate it and modify it a little, just like all the previously demonized people that came before were. \*But I agree with you regarding the Irish, we should all kick them out! \*\* 🙂 \*Mel Brooks, if you are also ignorant of that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/157 "2011-02-11T02:59:21Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > A group which does not put its own interests ahead of the interests of other groups will have a severe disadvantage in competing with them. I think you are not having the right focus on what the group should be, what I see is that many Latin American nations are developing and fast, and that means that we will have to compete and \*\*sell \*\*to them as never before in the near future. I would rather have a well educated group of Americans of LatinAmerican descent that will give us the edge in those markets. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/158 "2011-02-11T03:00:15Z")
I never realized the US was in Western Europe. Really should update my map. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/159 "2011-02-11T18:10:40Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Your pseudo-rant fails as a rebuttal because it ignores one point: LonesomeCoyote is ignoring the fact that he is an illegal and has no right to expect any of the things he’s demanding. He’s not even entitled to be here in the first place. And the inferiority or superiority of one culture over another is beside the point. I want my own people to survive and prosper, and to do that they must have their own homeland. By my own people, I mean the British and Germans who established this country, and the European immigrants who assimilated into it after immigrating. That’s impossible if we do not reserve for ourselves the right to decide who can and can’t come here. > > A group which does not put its own interests ahead of the interests of other groups will have a severe disadvantage in competing with them. And, as I’ve noted before, whites are the only people who are seriously expected not to care about race. Expecting whites to be indifferent to their own survival as a race is tantamount to a demand that they commit racial suicide. Well, we could take care of the numbers of illegals by making it much easier to come in legally, but I doublt you would be in favor of that either. With regard to the historic whiteness of America, California and Arizona were Hispanic long before they were white, and Native American before that. You prefer white culture I get that, but saying that whites have a fundemental right to keep the culture from changing, is as silly as someone saying he likes big band music and so feels there should be measures taken to prevent all of this new hippity hoppity music that’s coming out. I’m clearly not going to convince you, and in the meantime I’ll enjoy my burrittos, Rigatoni and sushi, listen to Salsa and Reggea music, and celebrate St Patrick’s day while not worrying too much about what the future will bring. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/160 "2011-02-11T18:18:39Z")
PS (slightly off topic): Regarding the US turning into the third world: The main characteristic I associate with the third world is having a bunch of rich elites at the top with all the pwoer and wealth while everyone else is dirt poor, without a middle class to speak of. This uneven wealth distribution is starting to happen in the US, but its the Conservatives rather than the Liberals that are egging it on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=9)