# Should the USA have black states?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 29, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335 "2015-08-29T21:59:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/41 "2015-08-30T02:55:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Not really. I could equally say: The first question is whether it can be done without creating more damage that it fixes. You’d be better served with a “what if blacks and whites had segregated after the Civil War”? Of course, you still have to deal with Hispanics and Asians.
> I always thought Detroit was the “capital of Black America” (if there is such a thing) and it’s very black.
> Nonsense. The SPOKEN assumption for rejecting your plan is twofold: 1. There is no plan and 2. Any conceivable plan would likely make things worse. There are any number of examples of how this type of plan failed (see: Yugoslavia). What are your examples of when such a plan has worded?
> See above. What’s a few civil wars amongst friends? Simply put, there is no way to do this except by force. And once you go down that road, you turn the US into Yugoslavia or Iraq or Syria.
> Again… where has such a plan ever been implemented without force and violence? You’re talking about the massive displacement of people in order to satisfy some social experiment about race and class. Your omelette isn’t worth the number of eggs that need to be cracked.
>
> One thing is for sure: Your ideas will play very well at your local KKK and White Supremicist meetings. Ask yourself why.
It doesn’t REQUIRE a single person be displaced; see my post above. I don’t think it’d work, but it could be completely voluntary. West Virginia took off, why can’t Detroit?
Let’s start with Detroit, and if that state is successful, we could evaluate where to go next. Maybe Miami?
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/42 "2015-08-30T03:33:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> The unspoken assumption in keeping things the way they are is that blacks are “like children” and “can’t, just can’t, rule themselves, the poor creatures.” So blacks are assumed unfit for power.
Like John Mace, I see no logic behind your assertion about this unspoken assumption. Can you explain why you say there’s such an assumption.
> [@](#):
>
> Meanwhile, our internal security agencies despise and persecute racial minorities.
Do you have a cite for this? (I’m sure you wouldn’t make such a sweeping assertion if all you can point to is a small number of incidents involving individual law enforcement officers.)
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/43 "2015-08-30T03:35:24Z")
Oh for the love of…
OP, Imagine you are Black. You’ve just graduated from college, and also just got married. You find a job in, say, Bangor Maine which is perfect for you. It’s in your chosen field, well paid, and the firm may fund further education if you work out. Your spouse supports the move and there are opportunities for her/him as well. You have some friends from college living there, who are eager to introduce you to the social scene. You’ve got a line on a home in a place that seems great to raise a family in.
Then you get a letter: “I’m sorry sir, but we are moving African Americans to special ‘AA only states.’ You are forbidden to move to this jurisdiction. Please continue reading for some counties where it is acceptable for people of African heritage to dwell. Best of luck.”
This is something you actually would support?
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/44 "2015-08-30T03:45:17Z")
Liberia certainly worked out very well.
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### Author:  [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/45 "2015-08-30T03:49:17Z")
The Constitution of the United States says:
> [@](#):
>
> New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/46 "2015-08-30T04:02:36Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> The first question is whether it’s desirable. How comes later.
>
> Majority-black states with black governments would represent a rejection of the longstanding class paradigm, under which black people exist as the descendants of a discarding servile class and mainly congregate in ghettoes with no real political power. Chicago may be the “capital of Black America” but it’s still very white.
>
> The unspoken assumption in keeping things the way they are is that blacks are “like children” and “can’t, just can’t, rule themselves, the poor creatures.” So blacks are assumed unfit for power.
>
> Meanwhile, our internal security agencies despise and persecute racial minorities. Would black states with black city governments and black police officers trained at black police academies do better? \*Probably. \*It’s not a perfect solution; it doesn’t have to be; it just has to be better than the present brutality.
>
> “Integration” has meant what, exactly? Has white flight ended? Are blacks generally welcomed as neighbors? If so, that’s welcome news.
>
> But still, “integration” means permanent minority status. I think it makes sense for blacks to have clear, open opportunities for sovereignty in contexts where a black candidate is not just the “Affirmative Action candidate.”
>
> Historically, black cities tend to be treated badly, perhaps because they are under the authority of white state governments.
>
> Maybe black nationalism is a better option. Black states within the USA seems like a compromise. But if you prefer, I can advocate full secession of the banks of the Mississippi as “New Africa” or something. That might be more secure anyway. Have an enforceable border. 😉
This all seems to have very little connection to the reality that most of us are living in.
Are you saying that any non-white person who lives in a state with a white governor is automatically oppressed because he’s living under white rule? Do you feel that white people living in a state with a black governor are also oppressed?
Call me crazy but I think it’s possible for black people and white people to work together on achieving their common interests under one government.
Now I’m not denying that there is still racism in America. But I don’t see putting black people on reservations as the solution.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/47 "2015-08-30T04:06:10Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#):
>
> OP, Imagine you are Black. You’ve just graduated from college, and also just got married. You find a job in, say, Bangor Maine which is perfect for you. It’s in your chosen field, well paid, and the firm may fund further education if you work out. Your spouse supports the move and there are opportunities for her/him as well. You have some friends from college living there, who are eager to introduce you to the social scene. You’ve got a line on a home in a place that seems great to raise a family in.
>
> Then you get a letter: “I’m sorry sir, but we are moving African Americans to special ‘AA only states.’ You are forbidden to move to this jurisdiction. Please continue reading for some counties where it is acceptable for people of African heritage to dwell. Best of luck.”
The irony is that somebody who is telling black people where they’re allowed to live for their own good is accusing the rest of us of treating black people like children.
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### Author:  [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/48 "2015-08-30T04:10:47Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#):
>
> The Constitution of the United States says:
So how did WV secede? A state “in rebellion” is still a state, right? Anyway, I can assure you Lansing would let Detroit go. It would break our hearts, but, hey, common good and all that. Don’t let the door hit ya…
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/49 "2015-08-30T04:32:22Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#):
>
> Then you get a letter: “I’m sorry sir, but we are moving African Americans to special ‘AA only states.’ You are forbidden to move to this jurisdiction. Please continue reading for some counties where it is acceptable for people of African heritage to dwell. Best of luck.”
>
> This is something you actually would support?
Did I say that there had to be ethnic cleansing? Maybe I left that inference. Sorry.
No, surely it would be better to draw new boundaries around regions that are already over 50% black, rather than forcibly repatriate anyone.
But!
If you contend that if there were majority-minority states, then ethnic purges \*would \*happen, then you’re just proving that black people aren’t wanted in the USA.
Which, let’s be honest, is pretty much the case.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/50 "2015-08-30T04:34:12Z")
So what happens to bi-racial people? Are they basically screwed?
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/51 "2015-08-30T04:42:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#):
>
> Good idea ! They could be separate States. But, y’know, all equal-like and shit.
Yes. _Just like the several states now._
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> So your question is, should we have legally enforced racial segregation?
😕 Is it “enforcing racial segregation” to keep New Mexico separate from Texas?
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/52 "2015-08-30T04:44:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Are you talking about moving people around, or just redrawing the boundaries?
Yeah, well, I’m spitballing. How about we start with redrawing boundaries and see what happens?
But, hey, if most of the white folks on this board went straight to ethnic cleansing and destroying mixed-race people, well, OK, _good to know._
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/53 "2015-08-30T04:48:25Z")
I’ve been slightly confused why Blacks don’t have more political power in the South than they do.
Hinds County, Mississippi has 69% Black population but the Democrat Childers got only 58% of the vote in the recent Senate election. (In fact, the Senate contest was mainly between the right-winger and the Tea-Bagger with the general election almost just a formality!) Four possible causes are:
(a) Low Black turnout
(b) Black voter suppression
© Significant Black vote for the GOP
(d) Very few Whites in Mississippi vote Democratic
Which of these is the key explanation? (If you don’t understand why Blacks “should” almost all vote for (D) and many Whites “should” also, please ask your ignorant question in the Pit.)
Similarly Alabama, with over 26% Black population, gave Romney over 60% of the vote in 2012. Why is this?
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/54 "2015-08-30T04:53:22Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> I don’t like the idea of redrawing state boundaries to gerrymander racially pure districts, but I do think having more majority-minority districts would be a good thing, and that it applies to state governments as well as House districts. Ethnic and racial minorities need opportunities for representation in all branches and levels of government. And breaking up the existing ruling class (though I think it’s more open and pluralistic than you do, it clearly exists and is mostly white-Anglo) would be a good thing. Proportional representation would be the best way to accomplish it, but that ain’t likely. It’s one reason I wish Puerto Rico would become a state, though. (I wish DC could, too, but it’s just too small.)
Oh, wait, I forgot about this post. Thank you. Really. Someone other than our resident straw-construct engaged with the core idea halfway favorably.
It’s nice to have a thought experiment like this get something besides knee-jerk scorn.
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> Why? Have the “majority-minority districts” actually lead to good outcomes? I’m not asking whether they’ve lead to more blacks being elected, or more of any group being elected. I’m asking whether they’ve lead to better government.
Many Democrats say no.
> [@](#):
>
> If you instead draw districts in a fair and colorblind way, then some number of blacks will be in every district, though perhaps not a majority anywhere. Thus all representatives will have some motivation to care about black issues.
And so the blacks will be a minority everywhere. What do we call a minority in a majority-rule (or plurality-rule) system? “Losers,” comes to mind.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/55 "2015-08-30T05:08:15Z")
> [@ITR Champion](#):
>
> Have the “majority-minority districts” actually lead to good outcomes?
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> Many Democrats say no
That’s a rather evasive answer. Have the majority-minority districts actually lead to good outcomes? It’s a yes-no question. Why not give us a straight answer.
And if the answer is no, then why would we want to push the idea further with majority-minority states?
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/56 "2015-08-30T05:24:50Z")
> [@Xema](#):
>
> Please do feel free to present the details of your racial balkanization plan (e.g. how implemented, cost, positive and negative consequences you expect, how this has worked elsewhere, etc.). Until you do a good job of this, don’t be surprised at skepticism.
I welcome skepticism. This is a thought experiment.
Is permanent second-class citizenship preferable to “balkanization”? Surely it’s a question of context and options.
I _would_ like us to join hands in brotherhood and sing “Free at Last,” you know? I would like to cashier all the brutal racist police officers giving the police forces of this country, and the city governments they represent, and states of which those cities are divisions.
But apparently, even that is considered a pipe dream. And so, I almost have to conclude that the black nationalists are _right._ Assimilation is a joke. Obama is a joke.
Police kill a young black man every two days on average. Is that supposed to be progress? What, was it every day in the Clinton administration?
If, as some of my older white liberal acquaintances like to reassure themselves, it was “so much worse in the old days,” and “it’s getting better all the time,” what did the death rate from police used to be? Or are they just congratulating themselves for not pounding on a darkie _themselves_ in the last ten years?
Now, I suppose there’s no way at present to get white states to give up territory to black states. And most of the states’ ruling coalitions _are_ white, while _none_ are black.
So maybe this is about relocation. Not forced. The Great Migration had elements of force. Maybe a large movement of blacks need to pick a state and take it over. Rule it themselves and prove it can be done.
Granted, if they tried, that state, however liberal and hipster it was previously, would probably be full of KKK in short order. Maybe there is no hope. ☹
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/57 "2015-08-30T05:28:51Z")
Not all questions have a definite answer. The “white side of the Democratic Party” argument is that majority-minority districts are bad, because they break up the working class.
But the white side of the Democratic Party includes racist cops and state politicians connected to racist police departments. At this point, any white pol, even Bernie Sanders, has to prove himself a friend of minorities, because it does no good to assume.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/58 "2015-08-30T05:33:42Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> I’ve been slightly confused why Blacks don’t have more political power in the South than they do.
>
> Hinds County, Mississippi has 69% Black population but the Democrat Childers got only 58% of the vote in the recent Senate election. (In fact, the Senate contest was mainly between the right-winger and the Tea-Bagger with the general election almost just a formality!) Four possible causes are:
> (a) Low Black turnout
> (b) Black voter suppression
> (c) Significant Black vote for the GOP
> (d) Very few Whites in Mississippi vote Democratic
> Which of these is the key explanation? (If you don’t understand why Blacks “should” almost all vote for (D) and many Whites “should” also, please ask your ignorant question in the Pit.)
>
> Similarly Alabama, with over 26% Black population, gave Romney over 60% of the vote in 2012. Why is this?
I’m confused by your post. Are in favor of or in disagreement with the proposal put forth in the OP?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/59 "2015-08-30T05:41:53Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#):
>
> 1. We are clearly - as a political state - comfortable with the concept of bending borders to create enclaves for minorities where different groups can be reasonably assured of elected one of their own to office. There are a number - many? - congressional districts in which this has been done…
Actually, most of the ethnic enclave voting districts appear to have been established for the opposite reason. Groups who might possibly provide a majority (or strong plurality) in multiple districts are generally placed in a single district so that their vote is limited to that single district, minimizing their potential power.
Beyond that, I am struck by the irony of the OP in hoping for considered and supported views while providing little more than a vague, unsupported belief that there is a remote possibility that such reworking of districts will give black people some unmeasured more voting power.
One fatal flaw, from my perspective, is the American mobility. Americans are constantly moving and any scheme to set up politically recognized “homelands” is going to fall apart as soon as the economy changes just a bit and the population moves to chase new jobs or escape unemployment. And, of course, the scheme, as proposed, ignores the ways in which the Southwestern Hispanic population is going to (massively) change U.S. demographics and Southeast and Southwest Asians are going to change the demographics on a smaller scale.
It just seems a short term solution looking for a problem to fix.
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### Author:  [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-have-black-states/729335/60 "2015-08-30T05:42:42Z")
I think it actually was considered for a while shortly after the civil war when they were wondering what to do with ex-slaves. There are even some small towns here in Kansas that were established by ex-slaves and were for awhile all black. Same as some other towns might have been for awhile all Germans or Norwegians and such.
But the idea of seperate black states never went very far.
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