# Should The USA Widen The Afghan War ? (To Pakistan)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428 "2011-10-03T13:17:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/21 "2011-10-04T12:41:50Z")
The USA should stop all aid to Pakistan. The USA should stop all aid to everywhere outside the USA. There are plenty of people in the US that could need that assistance and it has been made clear that Pakistan is at best two-faced and untrustworthy. Afghanistan will very soon have to deal with her own problems, until then attacks over the Pakistani border can be answered with retaliatory strikes. Preferable against the mosques and schools that produce the suicide bombers. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/22 "2011-10-04T14:15:43Z")
Invade Pakistan, and the freedom fighters will simply move their bases into India, or Iran, or Tajikistan. They’re not beholden to any country - that’s sort of the point. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/23 "2011-10-04T14:57:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We invaded Afghanistan because it was politically necessary for Bush to pretend he cared about Osama bin Laden and 9/11. So they did a half-assed job, got it out of the way as quickly as possible so they could get to their actual target of Iraq. This thread is about widening the Afghanistan War into Pakistan. Why did you bring Iraqi oil into it if you feel that’s an unrelated topic? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/24 "2011-10-04T16:16:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Invade Pakistan, and the freedom fighters will simply move their bases into India, or Iran, or Tajikistan. They’re not beholden to any country - that’s sort of the point. The freedom fighters? Who’re you describing as freedom fighters exactly? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/25 "2011-10-04T16:26:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The problem with this statement is the “the Pakistanis” part because it assumes there’s one unified government. The civilian government of Pakistan and President Zardari are not at war with the U.S. by proxy or otherwise. The military and the ISI (who have more power) have been supporting fundamentalism and terrorists for ages- not because they want a proxy war with the U.S., but because they want to make trouble for India. I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Of course I don’t mean any and all Pakistanis. But as you yourself note, the army and ISI (maybe they’re one and the same?) which are immensely important and powerful actors in Pakistan are supporting groups which have directly attacked the US. I think my use of ‘Pakistanis’ is thus valid. You also seem to be saying that because they don’t “want” a proxy war with the US, its ok that groups they support attack US interests? Also, if anything, the last ten years have shown that if somebody’s supporting fundamentalism and terrorism - it tends to become everybody’s headache regardless of what the supporters intentions may be. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/26 "2011-10-04T16:41:20Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > But as you yourself note, the army and ISI (maybe they’re one and the same?) which are immensely important and powerful actors in Pakistan are supporting groups which have directly attacked the US. I think my use of ‘Pakistanis’ is thus valid. I think it’s an important point to be clear on, and at least in the U.S., the distinction is not often made. > [@](#): > > You also seem to be saying that because they don’t “want” a proxy war with the US, its ok that groups they support attack US interests? I don’t seem to be saying it’s OK at all, and that’s because I didn’t say it was OK. > [@](#): > > Also, if anything, the last ten years have shown that if somebody’s supporting fundamentalism and terrorism - it tends to become everybody’s headache regardless of what the supporters intentions may be. Something civilian president of Pakistan knows very well and the U.S. government knows occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/27 "2011-10-04T17:25:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think it’s an important point to be clear on, and at least in the U.S., the distinction is not often made. > I don’t seem to be saying it’s OK at all, and that’s because I didn’t say it was OK. > Something civilian president of Pakistan knows very well and the U.S. government knows occasionally. Ok, instead of arguing semantics, lets get your viewpoint of the situation. Do you think Pakistan(and I think the Pakistani army qualifies, even if you don’t) is waging a proxy war against the US and US interests in Afghanistan? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/28 "2011-10-04T17:36:05Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Ok, instead of arguing semantics, lets get your viewpoint of the situation. Do you think Pakistan(and I think the Pakistani army qualifies, even if you don’t) is waging a proxy war against the US and US interests in Afghanistan? No, I don’t think Pakistan is waging a proxy war in Afghanistan. That would be one reason widening the war to Pakistan is a very bad idea - although it’s probably not as strong a reason as the idea of terrorists getting a nuclear weapon or an attack on India. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/29 "2011-10-04T18:06:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, I don’t think Pakistan is waging a proxy war in Afghanistan. On what basis? I think Mullen’s comments are very incriminating. He likely has access to far more information on the issue than either one of us. And his statements would seem credible especially since he’s been a supporter of Pakistan in the past. At the very least Pakistan is tacitly supporting the failure of American objectives through permitting their territory to be used by the Haqqanis and the Taliban. It’s much more likely that Pakistan is actively trying to ensure that a stable democratic government that could be friendly to India does not form in Afghanistan, and it is using proxies and violence to achieve this objective. That’s been their primary strategic card for decades now. That being said, I am also not in favour of the US widening the war to Pakistan (I live in India, maximum ancillary negative fallout :), but I do think that if the US wants to achieve its objectives of establishing a stable democratic government in Afghanistan that does not allow terrorism on its soil, it would have to eliminate the destabilising actors based in Pakistan, and it’ll have to do this on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/30 "2011-10-04T18:08:05Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The USA should stop all aid to Pakistan. The USA should stop all aid to everywhere outside the USA. There are plenty of people in the US that could need that assistance and it has been made clear that Pakistan is at best two-faced and untrustworthy. Afghanistan will very soon have to deal with her own problems, until then attacks over the Pakistani border can be answered with retaliatory strikes. Preferable against the mosques and schools that produce the suicide bombers. You want to bomb mosques and schools in Pakistan? Why stop there, might as well blow up hospital maternity wards, that’s where suicide bombers originate. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/31 "2011-10-04T18:25:08Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > On what basis? I think Mullen’s comments are very incriminating. I’m not disagreeing with Mullen. I just don’t think it’s a proxy war by Pakistan against the U.S. > [@](#): > > I do think that if the US wants to achieve its objectives of establishing a stable democratic government in Afghanistan that does not allow terrorism on its soil, it would have to eliminate the destabilising actors based in Pakistan, and it’ll have to do this on its own. There is zero chance the U.S. is going to do that. It would be a enormous undertaking, a huge reversal of policy, and incredibly dangerous for the reasons already described. It’s not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/32 "2011-10-04T18:33:50Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > We should have invaded Belgium for their chocolate… > > -XT If we believed in Capitalism like we claim. we would have bought the oil just like we buy the chocolate. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/33 "2011-10-04T18:36:48Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The latest remarks by Adm. Mullen have gotten me scared-there was also an item that 90% of the IEDs found in Afghansitan came from Pakistan. > It seems like the US is in the same position that it was in 1969 (in Vietnam)-we had the Viet Cong using Cambodia as a base, and so Nixon decided to extend the war-with results that were not optimal. > Personally, I think that extending the war to Pakistan would be a disaster-we would lose our supply routes, and there would be a very good chance of Pakistan falling to a home grown radical mslim regime. > Would Obama be so foolish as to do this? > I wish we wold declare victory and leave=-the Afghan War is simply not worth the cost. What the hell, do they have made in Pakistan stamped on them? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/34 "2011-10-04T18:37:52Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > You want to bomb mosques and schools in Pakistan? Why stop there, might as well blow up hospital maternity wards, that’s where suicide bombers originate. The USA should do whatever it takes to defend itself. However children are not born indoctrinated, this is happening in the “schools” (madrasahs) and Mosques. If you are not prepared to do what it takes to do the job, then you shouldn’t have started it. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/35 "2011-10-04T18:45:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with Mullen. I just don’t think it’s a proxy war by Pakistan against the U.S. If you’re not disagreeing with Mullen, then you’re splitting hairs with me. > [@](#): > > There is zero chance the U.S. is going to do that. It would be a enormous undertaking, a huge reversal of policy, and incredibly dangerous for the reasons already described. It’s not going to happen. Zero chance they’ll do what? I’m not sure of the size of the undertaking. What about bombing the Haqqanis/Taliban? Identifying where they are would be the toughest part, but not impossible? Wouldn’t be a huge reversal(or even a reversal) of policy either, given the drone strikes that are already carried out on Pakistani territory. Besides, I didn’t say action was likely or that it was going to happen. I just said it was imperative if the US wants to succeed in its stated objectives. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/36 "2011-10-04T18:49:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The latest remarks by Adm. Mullen have gotten me scared-there was also an item that 90% of the IEDs found in Afghansitan came from Pakistan. > It seems like the US is in the same position that it was in 1969 (in Vietnam)-we had the Viet Cong using Cambodia as a base, and so Nixon decided to extend the war-with results that were not optimal. > Personally, I think that extending the war to Pakistan would be a disaster-we would lose our supply routes, and there would be a very good chance of Pakistan falling to a home grown radical mslim regime. > Would Obama be so foolish as to do this? > I wish we wold declare victory and leave=-the Afghan War is simply not worth the cost. We’ve accomplished our objectives (namely killing bin Ladin and destroying Al Queda), so it is time to stop occupying Afghanistan, supporting our frenemies in Pakistan and securing Iraq for oil companies donating to politicians campaigns. Bring all the troops home and use a fraction of the money saved on covert intelligence gathering in those regions. When necessary, send a team of native looking operatives to take out the garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/37 "2011-10-04T19:06:07Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Zero chance they’ll do what? I’m not sure of the size of the undertaking. What about bombing the Haqqanis/Taliban? I thought you were talking about the U.S. eliminating hostile elements of the Pakistani military and ISI. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/38 "2011-10-04T19:14:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I thought you were talking about the U.S. eliminating hostile elements of the Pakistani military and ISI. Naw, that probably is unworkable and undesirable as well. Frustrating, because boy do some of those elements deserve it, but there it is. I meant the proxies that find safe haven in Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/39 "2011-10-04T20:48:32Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > The freedom fighters? Who’re you describing as freedom fighters exactly? _shrug_ Call them whatever you like. Mujahideen, fedayin, the baddies, the Taliban, illegal combattants, jihadis, resistants, insurgents, guerrilleros, hajjis… If what you were taking issue with was the connotation of the words I used, feel free to substitute your own prefered nomenclature, but consider yourself :rolleyes:'d. If you were actually confused as to whom I was talking about, then I don’t really know what to tell you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428/40 "2011-10-04T21:12:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > _shrug_ Call them whatever you like. Mujahideen, fedayin, the baddies, the Taliban, illegal combattants, jihadis, resistants, insurgents, guerrilleros, hajjis… If what you were taking issue with was the connotation of the words I used, feel free to substitute your own prefered nomenclature, but consider yourself :rolleyes:'d. > > If you were actually confused as to whom I was talking about, then I don’t really know what to tell you. It might behoove you to know whom you are talking about. If you think they would move to India or Iran, I suggest you look more closely at who they are. I mean, India?? You gotta be kidding. There couldn’t be a less friendly country in the entire region. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-usa-widen-the-afghan-war-to-pakistan/598428.md?page=3)