# SHOULD THE VATICAN GIVE UP ITS' WORLDLY ASSETS? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2000, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583 "2000-08-08T17:21:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![INTERPRETER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dbc845/32.png) [@INTERPRETER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/INTERPRETER)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/1 "2000-08-08T17:21:11Z")
Here’s a thought that has been circulating extensively as of late: given the abhorrent conditions in which third world citizens are living in these days, and given that the Catholic church with its’ billions and billions in assets is still accumulating as we speak, should it not be compelled by a world court to liquidate all its’ assets so that they can be distributed equally among the poorer nations to alleviate hunger and misery? This action would force the Vatican (and any other big religious movement) to adhere faithfully to the Bible’s (or the Koran’s or the Talmud’s ) precept of spreading the word of God while living in humility, unfettered by worldly possessions. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/2 "2000-08-08T17:26:29Z")
Nah. The last Pope who threatened to make the “vow of poverty” a reality for the Vatican (John Paul I) was rubbed out by the Mob after a scant month in office. John Paul II didn’t pursue his predecessor’s plan. That is, if you believe the conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![egkelly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/db5fbb/32.png) [@egkelly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/egkelly)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/3 "2000-08-08T17:32:10Z")
Thi is a very interesting question - if you read Umberto Ecco’s classic “THE NAME OF THE ROSE”, you will know that this arguement consumed the medieval church-that is, should the church be rich? St. Francis of Assisi chose the path of poverty, and (from all accounts) led an exemplary life. The Rennaisance church chose the other path-which is why the Vatican is (relatively) rich. However, if you sold all the property, melted down all the gold, and sold all the paintings, you still would not amke the slightest dent in the poverty of the world. The reason is: poverty in the third world is mostly the result of failed economic policies (mostly socialism and central planning). take India, for example-it has enormous resources 9labor, raw materials), but the central govt. insists on controlling everything. Result = poverty. Hong Kong has NO resources but people, but because the government allows capitalism, the economy flourishes, and almost nobody is poor. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/4 "2000-08-08T17:37:21Z")
God help us. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/5 "2000-08-08T17:42:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by egkelly \* > St. Francis of Assisi chose the path of poverty, and (from all accounts) led an exemplary life. Sure, but “St.” Francis was a Free Spirit until he sold out to the Catholics towards the end of his life, after several invitations from the Pope IIRC. > [@](#): > > However, if you sold all the property, melted down all the gold, and sold all the paintings, you still would not amke the slightest dent in the poverty of the world. Absolutely true. There is the old chestnut of “How many people would the Pope’s ring feed?” for example. The answer: one, and he’d probably get terrible indigestion. Sadly, people get so caught up in the mysterious monetary economy that they can’t see the reality of the situation. Now, how many homeless would the Vatican house is a valid question. Rumor has it Jesus couldn’t even get into the Vatican because they don’t allow people to enter wearing sandles! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/6 "2000-08-08T17:46:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by INTERPRETER \* > \*\*Here’s a thought that has been circulating extensively as of late: given the abhorrent conditions in which third world citizens are living in these days, and given that the Catholic church with its’ billions and billions in assets is still accumulating as we speak, should it not be compelled by a world court to liquidate all its’ assets so that they can be distributed equally among the poorer nations to alleviate hunger and misery? \*\* I have a few questions. What world court has the authority to make such a decision? On what basis would the world court have to take funds from the Roman Catholic Church? How would they go about distributing these funds equally to the poor of the world? What’s to stop them from forcing other organizations or individuals throughout the world into liquidating their assets for the good of humanity? > [@](#): > > \*\* > This action would force the Vatican (and any other big religious movement) to adhere faithfully to the Bible’s (or the Koran’s or the Talmud’s ) precept of spreading the word of God while living in humility, unfettered by worldly possessions. > \*\* I’m pretty sure the Pope and all those cardinals believe that their actions adhere faithfully to the bible and the word of god. Is there a reason you specifically singled out the Vatican? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/7 "2000-08-08T17:51:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Rumor has it Jesus couldn’t even get into the Vatican because they don’t allow people to enter wearing sandles! Well, lucky for Him, Jesus would have plenty of footwear options available today. My guess is that he’d come back wearing Doc Martens. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/8 "2000-08-08T17:53:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tymp \* > \*\*My guess is that he’d come back wearing Doc Martens. \*\* And a badass hoody. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/9 "2000-08-08T17:56:23Z")
“The poor will be with you always.” Tell you what, **interpreter**. You go ahead and take vows of poverty, give all you have to the poor. Then maybe you’ll have the right to require it of others. sheesh. I assume this is simply thinly-veiled Catholic-bashing, but I’m willing to be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![INTERPRETER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dbc845/32.png) [@INTERPRETER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/INTERPRETER)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/10 "2000-08-08T17:59:05Z")
Interesting replies so far: I would offer this suggestions: let’s just proceed with the premise that it’s a “doable” thing and not bother with the legalistic difficulties for now. Let us also assume that the spread of the Vatican’s wealth, coupled other religions’ wealth, might cause much, much more than a dent in the world situation and say, for a moment, that the very gesture itself would inspire others to do the same. Where then, would you stand? Great postings everyone - give me some more of your thoughts if and when you can. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/11 "2000-08-08T18:05:30Z")
but the Vatican and the RCC specifically in not only a religious organization but also a political and corporate one. The only difference between it and any other multi-national corporation is that it’s leaders also happen to be clergy and (most importantly) it continues to enjoy favoured tax status across many predominantly christian nations. The latter is more a function of the government of that nation than of the church’s direct religious influence. However, Christians, being a fairly large special interest group, tend to have much influence of gov’t policy towards the church and it’s treatment by gov’t. As for giving up riches, I think you will find that the personal financial picture of most clergymen is not reflective of the corporate wealth controlled by the corporate Vatican entity. I don’t think that even the highest officials in the RCC can be shown to be particularly wealthy men… though they do seem to have control over large quantities of assest belonging to the church itself. Thus, I don’t think you could successfully claim that the catholic clergy is living far beyond their supposed vows of poverty. Now I suppose that the Vatican can begin to sell it’s realestate holdings (the bulk of it’s wealth, IMHO) but how would it continue to maintain it’s membership if members no longer had places of worship in which to congregate? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/12 "2000-08-08T18:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by INTERPRETER \* > **Let us also assume that the spread of the Vatican’s wealth, coupled other religions’ wealth, might cause much, much more than a dent in the world situation** Did you _read_ the replies? (pictures a man starving on the outskirts of the Sahara. A truck pulls up. “Thank God, I’m saved” the man thinks. Two men exit the truck and get something out of the back. “Here you go sir. A papal scepter and a painting by Renault. Enjoy.” They get in the truck and drive off, leaving the man, starving, but at least he’ll die “rich”) Yes, of course the RCC is a terrible example for others promoting imaginary poverty as they do, but I doubt they are going to wake up tomorrow and start living holy lives. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/13 "2000-08-08T18:35:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > Yes, of course the RCC is a terrible example for others promoting imaginary poverty as they do, but I doubt they are going to wake up tomorrow and start living holy lives. In defense of the OP and it’s poster (FWIW)… but if they do not while insisting that everyone else does, isn’t that the worst kind of hypocrisy? On the other hand, I find it hard to imagine the RCC hawking its religious artifacts to the highest bidder. It’s the material artifacts and their religous trappings that attract attention due to their alleged holy nature. People pay money to see these things as historic (if not religious) objects and that is more profitable than their market value to a collector. ---
**Author:** ![cleosia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@cleosia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cleosia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/14 "2000-08-08T19:18:32Z")
> [@](#): > > On the other hand, I find it hard to imagine the RCC hawking its religious artifacts to the highest bidder. It’s the material artifacts and their religous trappings that attract attention due to their alleged holy nature. People pay money to see these things as historic (if not religious) objects and that is more profitable than their market value to a collector. Yes, but real estate in general has no historic or religious value and the church owns large real estate holdings (including a property that,according to rumor, has(had) a bordello on it. Or is that just another urban legend). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/15 "2000-08-08T19:44:42Z")
So, once again, why the RCC? Why not the United Methodist Church? The Southern Baptist Convention? The C of JC of LDS? Or how about very nearly _every single Christian alive_??? Why are we discussing the Catholics specifically? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/16 "2000-08-08T20:00:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > **So, once again, why the RCC?** I think it has to do with that the RCC at least pretends to recognize Christ’s teachings on the importance of worldly poverty for believers, while the other Churches you mention ignore these teachings entirely. Why not the Church of Scientology? Why not the Church of the SubGenius? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/17 "2000-08-08T20:31:21Z")
If they were using some of the money to help the poor, and the rest to throw wild parties, I could see why people would object. But if they use some of it to help today’s poor, and save the rest for tommorrow’s poor, what’s wrong with that? And why does the fact that individuals take a vow of poverty mean that the organization should be poor? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/18 "2000-08-08T20:50:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cleosia \* > Yes, but real estate in general has no historic or religious value … I beg to differ. Most real estate owned by RCC has a church right on it. Now surely you’ll agree that this has at the very least religious value to it’s followers. Given enough time (and the church is very patient) it will also begin to gain historic value like many old churches already have. And like I mentioned earlier, if they sell these properties, where will the members congregate. What about the future members of the RCC not yet born? Where will they be initiated into the ranks of the catholic community? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/19 "2000-08-08T21:02:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it has to do with that the RCC at least pretends to recognize Christ’s teachings on the importance of worldly poverty for believers, Do they? I wasn’t aware that the RCC tells its believers to be poor. Was it Vatican II, or before? > [@](#): > > while the other Churches you mention ignore these teachings entirely. Are you saying that other Christian and near-Christian churches ignore entirely Christ’s admonitions to love one’s neighbors? I think that’s a silly assertion to make. Certainly few Christian denominations demand poverty of their adherents, if that’s what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583/20 "2000-08-08T21:09:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > **Do they? I wasn’t aware that the RCC tells its believers to be poor. Was it Vatican II, or before?** Er… well, this church has these things called religious orders. I’m pretty sure they date before Vatican II, but I’ll try to get you a cite if you insist :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vatican-give-up-its-worldly-assets/28583.md?page=2)