# Should the "vilification" argument ever work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570 "2015-06-26T22:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/21 "2015-06-27T03:54:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Right - but the reason he’s objecting to the comparison is because he’s worried that anti-gay prejudice will becomes as socially unacceptable as anti-black prejudice. > > Which, of course, is exactly as it should be. Even if it weren’t, I’m not seeing how that would be a Constitutional issue. Last I checked, the Constitution protected your right to say stupid shit, but it doesn’t require that other people put up with it, and it never has, and even Alito has to be informed enough to know that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/22 "2015-06-27T04:02:30Z")
Yep. Not long from now anyone who expresses agreement with socialism will be villified and ostracized, as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/23 "2015-06-27T04:03:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No, he’s specifically saying that access to marriage is not equivalent to Jim Crow. If it is, then the logic is that churches must perform gay marriages. One part of Jim Crow was a refusal by some state governments to recognize interracial marriages. The Civil Rights movement put an end to that. However, despite that, no church in the country is required to perform interracial marriages. The comparison here is, of course, obvious: some state governments have refused to recognize gay marriages. The Gay Rights movement just put an end to that. However, despite that, no church in the country will be required to perform gay marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/24 "2015-06-27T04:37:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Man, fuck that guy. Fuck him right in the ear. Well there’s demonstrably a vast, gaping void just behind 'em so that could actually work. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/25 "2015-06-27T04:47:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > One part of Jim Crow was a refusal by some state governments to recognize interracial marriages. The Civil Rights movement put an end to that. However, despite that, no church in the country is required to perform interracial marriages. > > The comparison here is, of course, obvious: some state governments have refused to recognize gay marriages. The Gay Rights movement just put an end to that. However, despite that, no church in the country will be required to perform gay marriages. Yes. Back in Dec 2011 there was a news story about a small Kentucky church that banned interracial couples. > **[Kentucky Church Bans Interracial Couples](https://abcnews.go.com/US/kentucky-church-bans-interracial-couples/story?id=15065204)** > > A small Appalachian church in Kentucky church is being called racist for passing a vote that banned interracial couples from the church. In a 9 to 6 vote on Sunday, the church ruled that interracial couples could not participate in church services or... The pastor who implemented the ban denied that he was racist. But there was a vote and it was decided to ban such couples, apparently with the pastor’s support. (A new pastor had a different view though.) [Church bans interracial marriages; ‘I am not racist’ said former pastor – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/church-bans-interracial-marriages-not-racist-pastor-article-1.985232) So no, churches are not required to perform inter-racial marriages or allow inter-racial couples to attend services. Members of such churches are nonetheless vulnerable to accusations of racial prejudice, notwithstanding denials. The local church association regarded the ban as highly anomalous. Incidentally, a list of gay affirming churches in the US and world is available here: [About our Affirming Church Directory™ - GayChurch.org](http://www.gaychurch.org/find_a_church/about-our-directory/) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/26 "2015-06-27T05:02:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yep. Not long from now anyone who expresses agreement with socialism will be villified and ostracized, as it should be. Nah, conservative Americans will just decide over the next few years that the healthcare system as it has changed does not constitute socialism. Which will be an awakening from stupidity combined with cognitive dissonance the like of which the world has never seen. Then they’ll pretend it was their idea and they just didn’t like how it was implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/27 "2015-06-27T05:11:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yep. Not long from now anyone who expresses agreement with socialism will be villified and ostracized, as it should be. Either I’m missing something or this post makes no sense in the context of this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/28 "2015-06-27T05:14:43Z")
Response to the argument that some people need to be villified. The social acceptability of villification is a double edged sword. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/29 "2015-06-27T07:17:47Z")
If you say so, but I still say that isn’t clear from your post. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/30 "2015-06-27T07:17:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Response to the argument that some people need to be villified. The social acceptability of villification is a double edged sword. It’s also impossible to prevent. Certain ideas are just so bad that people are going to think badly of you for having them. Barring the ability to curtail thought or speech, it’s just going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/31 "2015-06-27T11:21:37Z")
Sounds like he wants the right to be a bigot, but NOT face any actual consequences for so being. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/32 "2015-06-27T13:36:59Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Sounds like he wants the right to be a bigot, but NOT face any actual consequences for so being. Agree. And yet this is a human right, not subject to opinion. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/33 "2015-06-27T13:44:53Z")
Thinking about it, it is a double edged sword. It’s either accept the vilification of homosexuals in loving relationships who seek only the societal benefits we all enjoy, vs the vilification of those who hate them, want them denied those rights, and to never merit social acceptance. If someone needs be vilified I find I am okay with it being the haters, over those seeking only the rights the rest of us already enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/34 "2015-06-27T13:46:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yep. Not long from now anyone who expresses agreement with socialism will be villified and ostracized, as it should be. Should Chrisitans give up the right to vilify homesexuality? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/35 "2015-06-27T13:52:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No, he’s specifically saying that access to marriage is not equivalent to Jim Crow. If it is, then the logic is that churches must perform gay marriages. No church is required to perform interracial marriages, so that’s not true. No church is even required to perform marriages of minorities even within race. Churches have a constitutionally protected right to be bigoted based on sincerely held religious beliefs. But they don’t have the right to avoid judgment by society at large, which is as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/36 "2015-06-27T13:53:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > One part of Jim Crow was a refusal by some state governments to recognize interracial marriages. The Civil Rights movement put an end to that. However, despite that, no church in the country is required to perform interracial marriages. > > The comparison here is, of course, obvious: some state governments have refused to recognize gay marriages. The Gay Rights movement just put an end to that. However, despite that, no church in the country will be required to perform gay marriages. You’re ignoring a key distinction. SSMs are directly counter to some religious doctrines. Not so with interracial marriages. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/37 "2015-06-27T14:02:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re ignoring a key distinction. SSMs are directly counter to some religious doctrines. **Not so with interracial marriages**. bolding added They used to be. Times change, people learn, the world becomes a better place (on average) for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/38 "2015-06-27T14:20:02Z")
To the people who are saying vilification is bad: what exactly do you think vilification is? If it’s just expressed scorn, then nobody has any protection against it and indeed nobody should. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/39 "2015-06-27T14:21:09Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > bolding added > > They used to be. Times change, people learn, the world becomes a better place (on average) for everyone. No, they never were, or at least there was never biblical support for such a view. You’re as likely to be able to make Jewish businesses open on Sabbath as you are to get churches to do gay weddings. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/40 "2015-06-27T14:23:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > To the people who are saying vilification is bad: what exactly do you think vilification is? If it’s just expressed scorn, then nobody has any protection against it and indeed nobody should. Scorn is fine. It goes a little beyond that though. Ask the Dixie Chicks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570.md?page=3)