# Should the "vilification" argument ever work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570 "2015-06-26T22:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/141 "2015-07-04T15:55:28Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > If you look at my post, the “elite, unelected…” argument was explicitly attributed to opponents of gay marriage. I predict you’ll see this as a talking point among Republicans in the near future. (At least until they obtain control over the court.) > > The bigger picture is this: suppose Republicans win the next election. As a result, they control Congress, and the Presidency. Now suppose, in the future, they get to choose one or more Supreme Court Justices. The 5:4 decisions we’ve seen recently (including this one) will become 5:4 decisions going the other way. Will those of you who are celebrating the power of 9 unelected judges still be celebrating then? Will you celebrate when they restrict the rights of women to have abortions? Gut Obamacare? Overturn this decision? > > In other words, are you really celebrating the triumph of the Supreme Court over the democratic process, or are you celebrating _this particular decision?_ > > Because there’s a not insubstantial chance that the Supreme Court could soon be handing down decisions that you really really hate. Will you still be saying that the Supreme Court is awesome then? I’m celebrating this decision and this particular group of 9 judges, even as I often disagree with the majority. In general, I think liberal judges are better for America, better for Americans, and better for the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/142 "2015-07-04T16:57:28Z")
We all seem to have survived Gore vs Bush, just fine. We weren’t happy, but we accepted that the highest court in the land had made its decision and we would have to suck it up. Because patriotism means respecting the process, the court, and the judges, even when it doesn’t go your way. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/143 "2015-07-04T18:53:45Z")
> [@To all the ignorant people out there - stop making the South out to be some unique villain.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-all-the-ignorant-people-out-there-stop-making-the-south-out-to-be-some-unique-villain/724024/261): > > I know you want to take the flag out of this, because you can’t argue it isn’t racist. It’s only racist to people who already assume that the south is racist. That they’re are swarms of people who just wish they could own slaves. I mean, in the last 50years, can you point to some evil acts inextricably linked to the flag? It was on the freaking Muppets. The Dukes of Hazard displayed it, and God knows how many times it was flown in cartoons, car racing events and the like—and nada. Then we have a sadly broken young man who decides to combine his racism and loserdom into a cowardly act of murderous violence. He had a flag patch and now that’s the reason for his actions. Please. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/144 "2015-07-04T19:26:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s only racist to people who already assume that the south is racist. No, at least not for me. I don’t believe in such a broad statement as “the south is racist” – many individual southerners are, of course, as are many non-southerners. Many are not. But I believe the symbol is racist (even if some who display are not, and display it for other reasons) because of its history, including its recent history and return to prominence. I don’t believe that a few decades of ostensibly non-racist use erases that symbolism, any more than it would were the swastika displayed for Teutonic pride. Also, I believe its racist because I think the opinions of black people in America are _necessarily more valid_ about anti-black racism than the opinions of any other people. If most black people in America believe something about racism or racist imagery, they’ve generally been correct, and on opinion issues like this, I’m inclined to defer to them unless there are very strong reasons to believe otherwise. In this case, I don’t think there are. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/145 "2015-07-04T19:42:58Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So if I owned a sandwich shop and refused to serve anyone wearing a cross or carrying a bible, you would be ok with that? 100% yes, provided it was clear and upfront. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/146 "2015-07-04T19:52:26Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > 100% yes, provided it was clear and upfront. Ok, so is there any way for someone like you, and someone like me… I disagree with you 99%… how do we get along without turning all of these issues into some great culture war? More specifically, these are questions to which we will never get consensus, at least not anytime soon, the culture wars will continue for a while. My philosophy will never sit quietly with yours, I don’t mind applying social pressure and other forms of pressure to get people to conform to views that you would probably consider “politically correct”. And your philosophy, “live and let live”, for lack of a better description, is noble, but I doubt your view will ever gain consensus. It appears in 10 or 20 years mine will… I hope it is obvious, I am asking you for your opinion, not attacking your position… ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/147 "2015-07-04T20:03:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s only racist to people who already assume that the south is racist. That they’re are swarms of people who just wish they could own slaves. I mean, in the last 50years, can you point to some evil acts inextricably linked to the flag? It was on the freaking Muppets. The Dukes of Hazard displayed it, and God knows how many times it was flown in cartoons, car racing events and the like—and nada. Then we have a sadly broken young man who decides to combine his racism and loserdom into a cowardly act of murderous violence. He had a flag patch and now that’s the reason for his actions. Please. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, at least not for me. I don’t believe in such a broad statement as “the south is racist” – many individual southerners are, of course, as are many non-southerners. Many are not. But I believe the symbol is racist (even if some who display are not, and display it for other reasons) because of its history, including its recent history and return to prominence. I don’t believe that a few decades of ostensibly non-racist use erases that symbolism, any more than it would were the swastika displayed for Teutonic pride. > > Also, I believe its racist because I think the opinions of black people in America are _necessarily more valid_ about anti-black racism than the opinions of any other people. If most black people in America believe something about racism or racist imagery, they’ve generally been correct, and on opinion issues like this, I’m inclined to defer to them unless there are very strong reasons to believe otherwise. In this case, I don’t think there are. I think you all meant to post these in a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/148 "2015-07-04T20:17:08Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I think you all meant to post these in a different thread. Well, granted, this thread began as a discussion of a particular nutty argument advanced by a particular Supreme Court Justice. But it’s surely valid to make it a discussion of the Supreme Court in general, and the fact that _changes in American cultural life have come about as the result of Supreme Court decisions_–about “race” as much as about other things. (Though it’s fair of you to point out that discussion of the Charleston shooter and his embrace of a specific symbol might make more sense in its own thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/149 "2015-07-04T23:24:29Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > While I whole-heartedly welcome government recognition of gay marriages, I still think it would be better for it to come our of the democratic process; in other words, for people to vote for representatives who would enact laws recognizing gay marriage. While I celebrated every victory for same-sex marriage at the polls and in the legislatures, I disagree with that approach. In particular, I don’t accept that being allowed to enter such a marriage is a gift we may generously choose to bestow on the people who want to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/150 "2015-07-05T18:14:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, so is there any way for someone like you, and someone like me… I disagree with you 99%… how do we get along without turning all of these issues into some great culture war? More specifically, these are questions to which we will never get consensus, at least not anytime soon, the culture wars will continue for a while. My philosophy will never sit quietly with yours, I don’t mind applying social pressure and other forms of pressure to get people to conform to views that you would probably consider “politically correct”. And your philosophy, “live and let live”, for lack of a better description, is noble, but I doubt your view will ever gain consensus. It appears in 10 or 20 years mine will… > > I hope it is obvious, I am asking you for your opinion, not attacking your position… Oh, social fucking pressure all the way, but never insult, never, Because the debate then becomes about the insult not the original problema. Insulting woldn’t work on me. Every time I’ve If Jake’s Soul Food has a no-White-people policy I think that they should have the right to do, even if their policy is silly to say the least. We have, especially now, lots of avenues to apply pressure. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/151 "2015-07-05T21:42:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, so is there any way for someone like you, and someone like me… I disagree with you 99%… how do we get along without turning all of these issues into some great culture war? More specifically, these are questions to which we will never get consensus, at least not anytime soon, the culture wars will continue for a while. My philosophy will never sit quietly with yours, I don’t mind applying social pressure and other forms of pressure to get people to conform to views that you would probably consider “politically correct”. And your philosophy, “live and let live”, for lack of a better description, is noble, but I doubt your view will ever gain consensus. It appears in 10 or 20 years mine will… > > I hope it is obvious, I am asking you for your opinion, not attacking your position… > [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, so is there any way for someone like you, and someone like me… I disagree with you 99%… how do we get along without turning all of these issues into some great culture war? More specifically, these are questions to which we will never get consensus, at least not anytime soon, the culture wars will continue for a while. My philosophy will never sit quietly with yours, I don’t mind applying social pressure and other forms of pressure to get people to conform to views that you would probably consider “politically correct”. And your philosophy, “live and let live”, for lack of a better description, is noble, but I doubt your view will ever gain consensus. It appears in 10 or 20 years mine will… > > I hope it is obvious, I am asking you for your opinion, not attacking your position… Well, I’d offer that we try to agree on the easy stuff. For instance, the bakery not wanting to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Who is “harmed” by that? No one. Just go to another bakery and have your cake baked by someone who wants to do it. What’s wrong with that. There was one of the bakeries in the news where the facts revealed that the owners glady served the gay _people_ in question without hesitation, they just don’t want to participate, with the _ceremony_. I italicized the two words I did to show that there is no discrimination against the people here. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/152 "2015-07-05T22:56:34Z")
The cake is part of the reception. That takes place after the ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/153 "2015-07-06T14:24:08Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > The cake is part of the reception. That takes place after the ceremony. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/154 "2015-07-06T15:33:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > For instance, the bakery not wanting to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Who is “harmed” by that? No one. This is kind of the problem, you actually think that a couple who is told that their relationship is so distasteful, so disgusting, that the person in front of you cannot stomach the act of making a cake that is going to be used at a party celebrating the relationship is “not harmed”. Yet, the person baking the cake, identical to every other wedding cake they make, outside of the little plastic people added to the top, for an identical amount of money they normally charge, for an event they literally take no part in, and do not have to see at all, THAT person is harmed. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/155 "2015-07-06T15:54:00Z")
I am actually quite serious. The ceremony part is directed by an official, be it priest rabbi or Justice of the Peace. The reception is a party directed by a DJ. The bakers have no compelling interest in what kind of party their cake is a part of. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/156 "2015-07-06T16:20:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Scripture is whatever people say it is, and always has been. Shh, nobody tell **adaher** about the Ecumenical Councils. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/157 "2015-07-06T16:35:52Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > This is kind of the problem, you actually think that a couple who is told that their relationship is so distasteful, so disgusting, that the person in front of you cannot stomach the act of making a cake that is going to be used at a party celebrating the relationship is “not harmed”. > > Yet, the person baking the cake, identical to every other wedding cake they make, outside of the little plastic people added to the top, for an identical amount of money they normally charge, for an event they literally take no part in, and do not have to see at all, THAT person is harmed. Yes, we see things for opposite points of view. I really don’t think people have a right to not feel offended. Espeically when they choose to feel that way. While I think asking someone to act in a way that goes agains their religious convictions is not okay. And I kind of remember that there was once a group of people who sailed a thousand of miles to unkn own lands just so they could live their lives in a way that comported with their religious convictions. Really. You could look it up! 😉 Seriously, we should try to make accommodation for people’s sincerely helped religious convictions, not quash them. I remember reading that during the Revolutionary War, Westchester County, just north of New York City, was a sort of no-man’s land. Washington issued an order that anyone the troops encountered there would have to swear an oath affirming their allegiance to the new country. The Quakers said that swearing an oath went against their religion. So Washington accommodated them by allowing them to “affirm” their allegiance. Again, there is now harm to a SS couple who is told that a bakery doesn’t want to bake them a cake. Just go to a baker who wants to bake the cake. Sheeze, this one should be one of the easy ones. Instead, we have people yogin bankrupt because—horror of horrors—a SS couple has to go to the bakery down the street. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/158 "2015-07-06T16:46:28Z")
Sort of a kind of seperate but equal bake shop, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/159 "2015-07-06T17:01:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Again, there is now harm to a SS couple who is told that a bakery doesn’t want to bake them a cake. Just go to a baker who wants to bake the cake. Sheeze, this one should be one of the easy ones. Instead, we have people yogin bankrupt because—horror of horrors—a SS couple has to go to the bakery down the street. It’s not about the cake. It has never been about the cake, or the pizza, or the venue. It’s not about waiting for the next clerk. It’s about being dehumanized, devalued as a person, because of who you are. The Civil Rights movement wasn’t about having a good seat on the bus, or eating at a good diner, or drinking from the nice water fountain, it was about equality, being treated as an equally valuable person. THAT is what is denied SS couples when they’re told a baker refuses to bake for them, their humanity. It’s not a fucking cake. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570/160 "2015-07-06T17:08:08Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s not about the cake. It has never been about the cake, or the pizza, or the venue. It’s not about waiting for the next clerk. It’s about being dehumanized, devalued as a person, because of who you are. > > The Civil Rights movement wasn’t about having a good seat on the bus, or eating at a good diner, or drinking from the nice water fountain, it was about equality, being treated as an equally valuable person. > > THAT is what is denied SS couples when they’re told a baker refuses to bake for them, their humanity. It’s not a fucking cake. But, in the end, it IS a fucking cake, isn’t it. If I were getting married and someone didn’t want to bake me a cake, or do flower arrangements, or take pictures, I’d simply go to where they wanted my business. In fact, if I didn’t feel they were excited about the opportunity I’d go elsewhere. The same as I do with anyone I give business to. For the record, the argument regarding clerks is different. Since they are acting as agents of the state, the state needs to get someone else to do the job. I could see suing a municipality over that, but not the individual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-vilification-argument-ever-work/723570.md?page=9)