# Should the winner of the popular vote be Canada’s Prime Minister? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 22, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131 "2019-10-22T12:42:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/21 "2019-10-22T16:40:32Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > If you believe that the winner of the popular vote deserves to be the executive, regardless of the established electoral system, then shouldn’t you believe Scheer should be Canada’s Prime Minister? Do you have a link to these people who say such things? I find it hard to believe someone said regardless of the established electoral system, every country should make the popular vote winner be the executive. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/22 "2019-10-22T16:43:08Z")
> [@BorgHunter](#): > > There is no possible universe in which winning 6.1 million votes out of 17.9 million cast means winning the popular vote. That’s 34%, just a hair over a third of the votes. Get real. Which party received more votes? By the way, the BBC agrees with me: > [@](#): > > The Conservatives are projected to take 34.4% of the popular vote, compared to the Liberals’ 33%. > **[Canada election: Trudeau's Liberals win but lose majority](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50134640)** > > Despite a bumpy first term, Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party earns a second, narrow election win. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/23 "2019-10-22T16:48:24Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Which party received more votes? > > By the way, the BBC agrees with me: > > [Canada election: Trudeau's Liberals win but lose majority - BBC News](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50134640) Why is a Brit so determined to set a hypocrisy trap for Americans using a Canadian election result? That’s the real question here. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/24 "2019-10-22T16:51:25Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > I haven’t proposed anything. I believe Trudeau won the 2018 Canada election under the established Canadian electoral system. I believe Trump won the 2016 US election under the established US electoral system. Many posters here, probably dozens, were outraged after the 2016 US election at their view of the unfairness of a country’s leader not being the candidate who won the popular vote. I’m just curious if anyone will view the similar Canadian result as being similarly unfair. If something is “the established system,” does that prove that it is fair? Like, if California gerrymandered all Republican congressional representation out of existence, would you consider that “unfair” in light of the state’s constitutional power to engage in redistricting? I’m of the view that legal does not always equate to fair, as sometimes laws are written for unfair benefit, and sometimes old laws outlive their reasonableness. ---
**Author:** ![BorgHunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@BorgHunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BorgHunter)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/25 "2019-10-22T17:01:00Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Which party received more votes? Why is this relevant beyond a small piece of trivia, if neither party received anything close to a majority? In these cases, the way to figure out who gets to be PM is by forming a minority government through a coalition with the smaller parties. If the Conservatives could form a minority government with the smaller parties, they would. They cannot. The Liberals can. Question for you: If, hypothetically speaking, there were about 100 equally-sized political parties in Canada, do you think the correct way to form a government would be to pick whichever one had the highest vote total (maybe only by a few votes) and make the leader of that party PM? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/26 "2019-10-22T17:19:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Do you have a link to these people who say such things? I find it hard to believe someone said regardless of the established electoral system, every country should make the popular vote winner be the executive. You want an example of people on the Straight Dope complaining that Hillary won the popular vote but lost the electoral college? Seriously? OK, here you go: > [@Re the 2016 POTUS election 5 months later are there any "lessons" for the Dems going forward?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/re-the-2016-potus-election-5-months-later-are-there-any-lessons-for-the-dems-going-forward/784510/8): > > Trump didn’t beat her. He won on a technicality. > > Carry on. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=824009](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=824009) And here’s a whole thread with people complaining that the US electoral college is unfair: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=813409](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=813409) ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/27 "2019-10-22T17:24:19Z")
Unfair and illegitimate are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/28 "2019-10-22T17:30:12Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > You want an example of people on the Straight Dope complaining that Hillary won the popular vote but lost the electoral college? Seriously? > > OK, here you go: > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=824009](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=824009) > > And here’s a whole thread with people complaining that the US electoral college is unfair: > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=813409](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=813409) What’s that got to do with a parliamentary system? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/29 "2019-10-22T17:35:38Z")
> [@BorgHunter](#): > > Why is this relevant beyond a small piece of trivia, if neither party received anything close to a majority? In these cases, the way to figure out who gets to be PM is by forming a minority government through a coalition with the smaller parties. If the Conservatives could form a minority government with the smaller parties, they would. They cannot. The Liberals can. > > Question for you: If, hypothetically speaking, there were about 100 equally-sized political parties in Canada, do you think the correct way to form a government would be to pick whichever one had the highest vote total (maybe only by a few votes) and make the leader of that party PM? Why or why not? I’m curious to see if anyone who has an adamant belief that the US electoral college is unfair, and believes that the winner of the popular vote should be the leader of the executive has an opinion on the Canadian election results. Regarding your hypothetical, I’d expect each riding would be able to elect an MP under the first past the post system, and then for those MP’s to see if there was a basis for someone forming a government. I’d recognise that’s the way representational democracy works. If a government was formed, even if it didn’t have the highest number of votes behind it, I’d personally recognise the government and acknowledge that the system worked, even if it wasn’t my personal preference. And if it was a Conservative government, I’d expect the left to start whining about what an unfair election it was, and crying about it for the next four years. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/30 "2019-10-22T17:41:21Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > I’m curious to see if anyone who has an adamant belief that the US electoral college is unfair, and believes that the winner of the popular vote should be the leader of the executive has an opinion on the Canadian election results. Relative to your user name, has anyone ever told you that a wrench is an excellent tool to use on bolts, and did you respond by asking if they think a wrench is an excellent tool to use on screws? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/31 "2019-10-22T18:06:44Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > But that doesn’t mean that Scheer couldn’t pursue a centrist pragmatic agenda. Bwahahahaha! Stop, you’re killing me over here. No really, this is a ridiculous statement. The only actual agenda Scheer has besides not being Justin Trudeau is axing the carbon tax and building oil pipelines. There is zero support for these policies amongst the NDP, Bloc, and Green. There is no centrist pragmatic approach that will accomplish that agenda. And there is no path for the CPC to abandon that agenda - pro-Alberta oil industry is a core CPC value. Sinn Fein will abandon republicanism before the CPC abandons the oil industry. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/32 "2019-10-22T18:18:20Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > I’m curious to see if anyone who has an adamant belief that the US electoral college is unfair, and believes that the winner of the popular vote should be the leader of the executive has an opinion on the Canadian election results. I’m sure it is possible to find somebody who believes this (after all there are people who believe climate change isn’t real and that vaccines cause autism), but really the question is nonsensical. The two aren’t really relatable. You can believe the electoral college is unfair and believe that a Westminster style government isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/33 "2019-10-22T18:23:05Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > I’m curious to see if anyone who has an adamant belief that the US electoral college is unfair, and believes that the winner of the popular vote should be the leader of the executive has an opinion on the Canadian election results. Your OP is erroneous because the Conservatives didn’t win the popular vote because there was no ‘popular’ vote. We voted for our ridings - many of us had to vote strategically based on that fact. There are many people, including myself, who would have voted completely differently if there was a popular vote for leadership. Do you think many would have voted Bloc for a popular vote / national leadership - when it would be impossible for them to win that vote given they only ran in Quebec? The US is different, because they vote for the Senate, the House and the President all SEPARATELY. Each of these votes from an individual can be for a different party. So when you vote for the President - it is a ‘Popular’ Vote. However it becomes skewed due to the electoral college. Primarily Parties that are popular in small rural states like Wyoming have an advantage because there are minimum numbers of electoral votes per state. Each electoral college vote in Wyoming represents 188,000 people - each electoral college vote in California represents 677,000. That is the simple reason why people begrudge Hillary losing the election when winning the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/34 "2019-10-22T18:39:11Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Many posters on the SDMB believe that Hilary Clinton should be the President of the United States because she won the popular vote in the 2016 election. This question is addressed to those believers. Should Andrew Scheer, whose Conservative Party won the popular vote in the 2018 election, be Canada’s Prime Minister? 99.5% of the country did not vote for or against Justin Trudeau. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/35 "2019-10-22T20:01:02Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > I’m sure it is possible to find somebody who believes this (after all there are people who believe climate change isn’t real and that vaccines cause autism), but really the question is nonsensical. The two aren’t really relatable. **You can believe the electoral college is unfair** and believe that a Westminster style government isn’t. Indeed, the electoral college being “unfair” was literally part of its design. They feared allowing the votes of populous states to overwhelm the votes of less populous ones, and so engineered a system intended to balance that out. It’s entirely possible to decide that this plan was flawed, and oppose the system. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/36 "2019-10-22T22:05:54Z")
**Should the winner of the popular vote be Canada’s Prime Minister?** So let’s see. In the current situation: Seats: 157 Liberal 121 Conservative 32 Bloc 24 NDP 3 Green 1 Ind And the Conservative Party of Canada garnered the most votes (popular vote?) So in this hypothetical, Scheer would be the Prime Minister. What happens next? 1. Scheer puts together a Throne Speech using elements from his election platform and advice from Conservative Party advisers. It is soundly defeated, because he only holds 121 seats and it needs 170 votes to pass. And the other 216 members hate what the Throne Speech contains. The government folds. 2. Scheer puts together a Throne Speech using elements from the Liberal and NDP platforms. The speech passes because the Liberals and NDP like it, and hold a majority in the house. Scheer is then thrown out as leader by his own Conservative caucus, because he has gone against everything that the party stands for. I would say that the idea put forth in the OP is an exceedingly poor one. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/37 "2019-10-22T23:36:24Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > There aren’t a huge number of Canadians on this board, but there’s a fair few – probably enough for an effective survey sample. Did any of the Canadians who voted in this election consider the merits and platforms of the people running to be their MP, and then considered the merits and platforms of the party leaders, and then chose an MP from a different party than your preferred party leader? I put more faith in party policy than the local candidate, but I’m quite happy with our local candidate who just won her 8th straight election. The candidate would have to be particularity offensive to me in order to not vote for the party. ---
**Author:** ![str8cashhomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@str8cashhomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/str8cashhomie)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/38 "2019-10-23T00:57:33Z")
Parliamentary systems with proportional representation work better than ones without, but any type of parliamentary system, or a split system with a simple popular vote are all worlds better than the US system. We have arbitrarily sized areas with intentionally disproportionate EC votes, and the EC votes don’t even allow for local control, which is the only real benefit of a Westminster system, because the electors don’t continue to have any power after a President is inaugurated. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/39 "2019-10-23T12:18:09Z")
> [@str8cashhomie](#): > > Parliamentary systems with proportional representation work better than ones without… Do they? I mean, is there some objective way you can prove that? In any case, I too don’t understand Wrenching Spanners’ angle here. Canadians don’t elect their head of state. Americans do. The USA’s electoral equivalent to Justin Trudeau is not Donald Trump; it’s a hybrid of about 70% Nancy Pelosi, 20% Mitch McConnell, and 10% Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131/40 "2019-10-23T12:37:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Why is a Brit so determined to set a hypocrisy trap for Americans using a Canadian election result? He has nothing better to do. It’s Operation Overbored. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-winner-of-the-popular-vote-be-canada-s-prime-minister/842131.md?page=3)