# Should there be greater leniency towards fasting during Ramadan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610 "2017-06-22T16:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/1 "2017-06-22T16:17:14Z")
Disclaimer 1: For the purposes of this discussion, “Islam” refers to “mainstream” (what that constitutes is debatable) Sunni Islam. **I would prefer to avoid the thoughts of “extremist” groups: ISIS, Wahabi/salafist Muslims** Disclaimer 2: I am not a Muslim, but I’m exploring Islam, I fasted this Ramadan and last but did modify it quite a bit (often started my fast at closer to 7 then before dawn, skipped several days when I had really bad headaches, etc). There are well-known exceptions to the fasting requirement: Age, medical conditions that preclude fasting or acute illness that precludes fasting, travel, pregnancy, menstruation, breastfeeding. Depending on the criteria for exclusion from fasting, Muslims may either pay to feed another person or make the fast up later or both. I’m fairly sure the majority of observant Muslims would not consider the reasons that I did not fast to be legitimate reasons not to fast–although I do get most of my opinions on what Muslims believe from online message boards. Anyways, in the US/Europe this Ramadan, the fast can last for 17+ hours. In the summer heat, without water. For some reason, most people begin the fast at the time of the dawn prayer, Fajr, which is actually an hour before dawn where I live (Los Angeles). And while most Sunni will break fast at the astronomical calculation of sunset, my understanding is that many Shia will actually wait until the time when most people would look at the sky and say, “the sun has set.” This can be an hour longer than the calculated sunset. Looking at online tables, today the fast begins at 4:17 and ends at 8:08. So, from the few Muslims I know IRL and the many, many things I’ve read online, I understand that the only widely-accepted permissible exceptions are the ones I’ve listed above. They also insist that their performance at work is basically unaffected. There are, from what I understand, literally millions of laborers/farmers/outdoor workers in the developing world who basically work the same as they would during other times of the year. I honestly don’t know how it’s done. There are also thousands of Muslims in the West and in Muslim countries who work jobs where slight errors can be life-or-death matters _for other people_. Surgeons (and other doctors), air traffic controllers, etc. Also possibly anyone who drives. Everyone I’ve asked/read about online basically insists that their work performance is not compromised, especially after the first couple of days, and some even claim that their work performance is enhanced. Some also say that, if an individual feels that his performance is being compromised, they can break fast. I have a really really hard time believing this. My own experience is obviously not hard data, but I’ve had a lot of trouble with the no-water thing. I think common sense also suggests that going 17+ hours/day without water would affect some of your skills. And while some people think it’s permissible to break fast at those times, it’s always dependent on the individual’s self-perception of his abilities. Which I imagine is fairly inaccurate. So my question is: Would it be fair to require people in these types of professions to not fast if they are working? (leaving aside issues of how it would be enforced). I think this situation is analogous to people who are intoxicated, whom we don’t allow to work in certain jobs or drive. Another common situation that causes impairment is sleep deprivation. While we do allow sleep deprived people to work, I think 1) it’s harder to figure out who is sleep deprived and 2) addressing the root cause of sleep deprivation is much harder than breaking a fast. Another question would be: Would it be fair to require pregnant women not to fast? They are exempted but many women do for part/all of their pregnancy anyways. The main reason I’ve heard is not wanting to have to make up the fast later when no one else is fasting, or wanting to reap the spiritual benefits of fasting as a community. What do you all think? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/2 "2017-06-22T16:30:51Z")
Who would be doing the “requiring” in these scenarios? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/3 "2017-06-22T16:53:19Z")
I am not a Muslim, but IIUC Muslims consider Jesus to be a great prophet, and I do fast. Jesus said in Matthew 5:24 that religious observations should give way before the needs of other people. And He talked a lot about the main religious observation of Judaism, which is the Sabbath. And it is OK, according to Jesus, to do a work of charity on the Sabbath, which sort of breaks a “fast” of work. FWIW. As far as the physical effects of fasting, I do it for 24 hours at a time, and it doesn’t impact my work performance very much. Granted that I am not a surgeon or anything like that, but if one is diabetic or hypoglycemic or something like that, it appears that is already covered under the medical condition exemption. Fasting in the Christian tradition is supposed to be a way to focus on prayer. It is a discipline of sacrifice, where you give up food (or something else) in order to be able to concentrate on praying for other people. But Jesus talked a lot about observing the letter but neglecting the spirit. I don’t know how this is seen as applying to one of the pillars of Islam, or if Muhammed said anything similar. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/4 "2017-06-22T17:08:16Z")
Have you spoken with an Imam about your concerns? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/5 "2017-06-22T17:26:29Z")
My boss (who’s also a good friend of mine) converted to Islam as an adult, when he married a Moroccan woman (he was raised Protestant, in suburban Chicago). He fasts during Ramadan, but as he’s described it to me, it’s intended to be an optional (though recommended) personal choice. That said, he appears to be a fairly liberal Muslim, including the fact that he doesn’t abstain from alcohol. What he’s told me is that anyone for whom fasting would cause physical hardship or potential medical issues (e.g., pregnant women, diabetics, etc.) is given an exemption from fasting (though, again, I suspect he attends a fairly liberal mosque). He’s also told me that he’ll break from the fast when he’s traveling for business, as (a) the travel puts extra stress on the body, and (b) some clients may see it as awkward when he attends a business lunch or dinner and doesn’t partake in anything. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/6 "2017-06-22T18:40:28Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > Have you spoken with an Imam about your concerns? I need to see an imam about a horse. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > My boss (who’s also a good friend of mine) converted to Islam as an adult, when he married a Moroccan woman (he was raised Protestant, in suburban Chicago). He fasts during Ramadan, but as he’s described it to me, it’s intended to be an optional (though recommended) personal choice. That said, he appears to be a fairly liberal Muslim, including the fact that he doesn’t abstain from alcohol. > > What he’s told me is that anyone for whom fasting would cause physical hardship or potential medical issues (e.g., pregnant women, diabetics, etc.) is given an exemption from fasting (though, again, I suspect he attends a fairly liberal mosque). He’s also told me that he’ll break from the fast when he’s traveling for business, as (a) the travel puts extra stress on the body, and (b) some clients may see it as awkward when he attends a business lunch or dinner and doesn’t partake in anything. That is my understanding, too. Fasting is not meant to kill anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/7 "2017-06-22T19:19:56Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Who would be doing the “requiring” in these scenarios? Good question. I think ideally imams/sheiks/muftis. They are the ones who clarify the rules, after all. Just as they say, “it’s obligatory to fast” they also can say, “It’s obligatory NOT to fast in certain situations.” The other option would be the government. But that would likely be unconstitutional and create a LOT of resentment, and I think overall be a suboptimal choice. > [@Shodan](#): > > As far as the physical effects of fasting, I do it for 24 hours at a time, and it doesn’t impact my work performance very much. Granted that I am not a surgeon or anything like that, but if one is diabetic or hypoglycemic or something like that, it appears that is already covered under the medical condition exemption. **Shodan** , are your fasts also fasts from water? If yes, do you not feel that your mental state is altered even slightly? I mean, isn’t that kind of the point of a fast, to change your mental state a bit? I know I get kind of spacey and slow. If your job is working in accounts receivable or retail or something, it’s likely not a life or death situation if you’re a little “off.” But there are jobs where it IS a life-or-death kind of thing, and those situations is what this thread is about. Also, no one comes to work 100% “on” all the time. Even people employed in life-or-death kind of jobs come to work stressed, angry, tired, etc. But the difference between those states and fasting is that fasting is a very concrete, easy to handle thing (as opposed to say, fights with your spouse that might make you stressed or sleepless). > [@Daddypants](#): > > Have you spoken with an Imam about your concerns? I don’t consider myself a practicing Muslim so I don’t have an Imam. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > My boss (who’s also a good friend of mine) converted to Islam as an adult, when he married a Moroccan woman (he was raised Protestant, in suburban Chicago). He fasts during Ramadan, but as he’s described it to me, it’s intended to be an optional (though recommended) personal choice. That said, he appears to be a fairly liberal Muslim, including the fact that he doesn’t abstain from alcohol. > > What he’s told me is that anyone for whom fasting would cause physical hardship or potential medical issues (e.g., pregnant women, diabetics, etc.) is given an exemption from fasting (though, again, I suspect he attends a fairly liberal mosque). He’s also told me that he’ll break from the fast when he’s traveling for business, as (a) the travel puts extra stress on the body, and (b) some clients may see it as awkward when he attends a business lunch or dinner and doesn’t partake in anything. A couple of thoughts 1. I know a few liberal Muslims who say it’s not required, or you can modify your fast (like every other day, or fast only from certain foods, or whatever), OR that you can choose instead to engage in another spiritual activity, like reading the Quran every day. But I will note that these ppl are not the majority nor the mainstream, and that all of them that I know say the above but then themselves follow the fast rigorously, and without exception. Like they won’t even take medication during the fasting period. 2. The exceptions you provide are basically the exceptions I mentioned in my post. Of note, many people for whom fasting “would cause a physical hardship” do fast, like some pregnant women, or ~30% of Muslim insulin-dependent diabetics (I can provide a cite if you need it) > [@John\_Mace](#): > > That is my understanding, too. Fasting is not meant to kill anyone. It’s not meant to kill the faster, definitely. But what if the faster engages routinely in tasks where slight mis-steps have grave consequences? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/8 "2017-06-22T19:28:36Z")
[Exceptions for fasting during Ramadan.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_during_Ramadan#Exceptions) > [@](#): > > Fasting during Ramadan is not obligatory for several groups for whom it would be excessively problematic. According to the Qur’an, if fasting would be dangerous to an individual’s health such as those with a medical condition or the aged, they are excused. > > [more at the link] ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/9 "2017-06-22T19:35:45Z")
Yes but does the article address those for whom fasting creates a danger to other people? Or are you extrapolating that fasting is not required for people upon whom other people’s health relies? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/10 "2017-06-22T19:36:27Z")
Listen brother, the Religion requires reasonableness, and there are the alternatives as you know for the alms… There is the tendency among those stiff knecked people who tend to be Imams to always be the holier than thou. Follow عقل - and use the discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/11 "2017-06-22T19:50:33Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Listen brother, the Religion requires reasonableness, and there are the alternatives as you know for the alms… There is the tendency among those stiff knecked people who tend to be Imams to always be the holier than thou. > > Follow عقل - and use the discretion. **Ramira** , I appreciate your response, I really do. But let me ask you . . . if you were an imam (I’m sorry I don’t know the term for a female equivalent) to a large group of women who were health care providers, and they asked you if they should fast during Ramadan, what would you say? If you would say, “do not fast if you feel your work is being impaired” . . . do you trust people to be accurate judges of their work quality? Do you think it’s okay for pregnant women not to fast if they don’t think it’s harming the baby? While I very much appreciate your “use your own discretion and let God and yourself be your guide about when to fast,” as you know, the Internet (where a lot of people get their info) is full of legalistic people who determine all these elaborate rules (swallowing your own saliva is okay, but basically swallowing anything else is wrong, brushing your teeth is okay as long as your don’t swallow any water at all), citing hadiths and previous scholars, etc. If you post on [ummah.com](http://ummah.com) (which seems pretty mainstream to me) and ask, “I get really bad headaches when fasting–what should I do?” I promise you that the vast majority of answers would say something like, “Make sure you drink enough water and eat healthy foods during suhoor and iftar” or “try to lie down or rest during the day if possible” or “it will get better in a few days.” And a select few would say something like, “Think about how much it pleases Allah (SWT) that you are enduring pain as part of your obedience! This is an essential aspect of your deen and you will be rewarded ten times over for it, either in this life or the afterlife.” OR “Think about all the people who have no choice but to endure these fasting headaches . . . it helps you sympathize with them” Very few, if any, people would say, “It’s okay not to fast then, or to modify your fast, and instead donate food to the hungry.” If you disagree please feel free to discuss it. I myself am a health care worker; I’m not someone who does very high acuity things or directly handles patient care–I’m more of a supervisor. However, it occurred to me last week that it really isn’t safe for me to be working when I feel spacey, etc. But I know fellow health care workers who are fasting who are adhering strictly to the fast. They would argue that they are not impaired. But again, I find that hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/12 "2017-06-22T20:08:03Z")
The answer depends of which sect you wish to follow, ranging from a fundamentalist Wahhabi doctrine of Sunni Islam such as practised by ISIS (who are very big into blowing up people and things), to a liberal first-world doctrine such as practised by Shia Nizari (who are very big into social welfare, education and international development). [Here’s the Nizari take on fasting:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizari#Marriage) > [@](#): > > Sawm Fasting (Arabic: صوم‎‎); Fasting during the month of Ramadan and to mark the new moon is believed to be beneficial for those who are overwrought with the base ego; desire, rage, and the self. Isma’ili who are following the tariqah (path) seek to transcend the base ego so as to attain an inner being that is in harmony, they absorb food as nourishment for a healthy, peaceful, body and mind; as the more important fast is that of mind and heart, where one abstains from unworthy concerns and worldly thoughts, and can be broken by succumbing to the base ego, and its insatiable desires. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/13 "2017-06-22T20:26:11Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The answer depends of which sect you wish to follow, ranging from a fundamentalist Wahhabi doctrine of Sunni Islam such as practised by ISIS… As strict and fundamentalist as Wahhabi Islam is, Da-esh are not Wahhabis. They have their own brand of fundamentalism distinct and even stricter and more brutal, if you can imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/14 "2017-06-22T20:32:03Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > **Ramira** , I appreciate your response, I really do. But let me ask you . . . if you were an imam (I’m sorry I don’t know the term for a female equivalent) to a large group of women who were health care providers, and they asked you if they should fast during Ramadan, what would you say? > If you would say, “do not fast if you feel your work is being impaired” . . . do you trust people to be accurate judges of their work quality? I am not Imam material… this is a social question and there is not a way to change without the social evolution. I think the social evolution comes with a social confidence. In the mixed Western context, many people feel a need very ostentatiously to affirm their Religion as their cultural anchor of identify and of course the Ramadan is very important in this context… Those who are feeling identify challenged, which is common for a second and third generation they turn to legalism often. It is not really a Religious question it is a sociological confidence question. > [@](#): > > While I very much appreciate your “use your own discretion and let God and yourself be your guide about when to fast,” as you know, the Internet (where a lot of people get their info) is full of legalistic people who determine all these elaborate rules (swallowing your own saliva is okay, but basically swallowing anything else is wrong, brushing your teeth is okay as long as your don’t swallow any water at all), citing hadiths and previous scholars, etc. Yes I know. It is boring. But there are lots of people who are seeking this kind of legalism, particularly among the identity seeking generation. > [@](#): > > If you post on [ummah.com](http://ummah.com) … Very few, if any, people would say, “It’s okay not to fast then, or to modify your fast, and instead donate food to the hungry.” Yes but then those who go there are seeking that kind of community. I ignore them. I do not in fact fast all the time (indeed I am barely to be called practicing ever) and I give charity instead, it is not possible to really do my work in reality. I do not make a big deal of this… It is not really that uncommon I think but people are discrete… > [@Muffin](#): > > The answer depends of which sect you wish to follow, ranging from a fundamentalist Wahhabi doctrine of Sunni Islam such as practised by ISIS (who are very big into blowing up people and things), to a liberal first-world doctrine such as practised by Shia Nizari (who are very big into social welfare, education and international development). > > [Here’s the Nizari take on fasting:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizari#Marriage) **Please do not try to give theological sect guidance outside of your own belief to make these superfical characterizations** , really. I have not anything against the Ismaïli Nizari, but please do not pretend to give a religious orientation, they have their internal things… This is as dumb and as empty as me trying to tell one of you Christians what sect of the Protestant Christian religion I think is best based on some wikipeida theological reading. It has that same value and I find it somewhat offensive, the pretension and statements from a superfical thin knowledge. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > As strict and fundamentalist as Wahhabi Islam is, Da-esh are not Wahhabis. They have their own brand of fundamentalism distinct and even stricter and more brutal, if you can imagine that. Yes the DAESH are an emmanation of that type of trend but they have fully adopted TAKFIR in a way that the modern Wahhabism dropped and have the readings very divergent. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/15 "2017-06-23T01:56:57Z")
Ramira, Gestalt raised very serious health and safety based questions concerning fasting during Ramadan. You gave a an answer: “Follow عقل - and use the discretion,” with which I take no issue (and I wish some of my friends would take that advice), but Gestalt then noted that over the internet he found the vast majority of responses to be either asserting the importance of full fasting for the duration, or offering sympathy for the pain. This did not provide insight into how to determine what is and what is not reasonable. I pointed out that there is a broad range of observances, depending on which sect one choses, and illustrated this with two extremes: ISIS which had already been noted by Gestalt, and Shia Ismaili Nizari, which takes an approach to Ramadan fasting that is based on being reasonable. Ramira, I did not and I am not advising on the minutiae of religious observances. I am simply pointing out the obvious: shop around before buying something that does not fit, and if you are going to base your decision on what is a reasonable fit, then among your explorations, learn about a sect that gives guidance on how to go about addressing the reasonability issue. Ramira, you expressed concern about my reference only to a wiki. Fair enough. Here are references to a couple of examples of non-first world Ismaili Nizari communities who do very little physical fasting, three of statements directly on the fasting point by the late spiritual leader of all Ismaili Nizari the Aga Khan III (a direct descendant of the Prophet), and excerpts from an interview with their present Aga Khan IV that expands into both fasting and working. Frank Bliss, “Social and Economic Change in the Parmirs (Gorno-Badakhshan, Tajikistan)”, 2006, page 231. [Social and Economic Change in the Pamirs (Gorno-Badakhshan, Tajikistan ... - Frank Bliss - Google Books](https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id=sJpH_54CDHQC&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&dq=Social+and+Economic+Change+in+the+Pamirs,+2006,+231+Bliss&ots=4jYaMptHYV&sig=hKDezL_hVB72rapDssZPVsaovBw#v=onepage&q=fasting&f=false) > [@](#): > > Fasting (rûza) during the Islamic month of Ramadan is always carried out according to individual traditions. The Sunnis fast for exactly one month; in some countires this is done under considerable social pressure, or even state coercion. Devout Ismailis in the Pamirs were never – and are still not – put under this kind of pressure to fast. However, in the past pious men and women would fast for up to 40 days. Nowadays they often observe just three days of fasting. This is not to help remind people of their religious prescriptions, but on the other hand will not render them unfit to work properly, as this is considered by many people to serve no useful purpose. During Ramadan visits to relatives are more frequent and a more substantial meal is eaten in the evenings. On the day the fast is broken (Ramadhân) children are given sweets. John Norman Hollister, “The Shi’a of India”, London, Luzac & Company Ltd., 1953, pages 388 and following. [https://archive.org/stream/TheShiaOfIndia-JohnNormanHollister/118552874-The-Shi-a-Of-India-1953-John-Norman-Hollister\_djvu.txt](https://archive.org/stream/TheShiaOfIndia-JohnNormanHollister/118552874-The-Shi-a-Of-India-1953-John-Norman-Hollister_djvu.txt) > [@](#): > > CHAPTER XXV > > . . . . > > THE RELIGION OF THE KHOJAS > > . . . . > > Fasting > > Brother, do not make a mistake. I do not say: ’ do not pray ', or ’ do not fast ’ ; what I say is : do not permit yourself to be cheated by those who ostentatiously pray much, or talk much about fasting. All these things are very proper and very laudable but if these people have no love for the Lord (Mawla), all this will scarcely help them. > > In the Pandiyat-I Jawanmardi it is prescribed: “To fast one day out of thirty days (of Ramadan) is customary, there is no need to fast any more.” > > In accordance with this direction Khojas fast only on the 20th of Ramadan, and then only from the time they go to bed on the 20th until noon of the 21st, not a very severe ordeal. However, the whole month is considered as sacred, but the nights from the 19th through the 23rd are especially so. One of these nights is thought to be the lailat al qadr, the night of decree, on which the Quran descended, and which is also the night when a record is made of what the coming year will bring forth. > > Muhammad did not remember the exact date and according to a hadith of Bukhari directed that those interested " search for it in the last ten days, and on one of the odd days." On the nights from the 19th to the 23rd a service of confession is held at the jama’at khana. > > The confessor kneels in front of the Mukhi or Kamaria and says: ’ Ya 'Ali '. The Mukhi (or Kamaria) takes a little of the holy water mixed with the mould of Karabala and sprinkles it on the confessor’s forehead. The confessor then pays a silver coin and retires. > > One who wishes to make such a confession can go on any of these special evenings. There is no verbal confession of sins such as is known in western confessionals, yet one who partakes in this ceremony receives forgiveness of his sins for the past year. In the Madhahib al Islam, in connection with these services, we are told that printed cards with the names of the Panjtan printed on them, are kept in the jama’at khana and during the service are placed by the Khojas on their heads. On the night of the 23rd Ramadan the jama’at khana is illuminated. > > If a new moon falls on a Friday, the following Friday is called Sambha and it is a day of fast in the same manner as the fast observed on the 21st Ramadan. The Maulais and the Persian Ismailis do not fast at all. Excerpts: Their Highnesses the Aga Khans III and IV on fasting and Ramadan > **[2012.07.18---excerpts-their-highnesses-the-aga-khans-iii-and-iv-on-fasting-and-ramadan.pdf](https://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/wp-content/uploads/facebook/2012.07.18---excerpts-their-highnesses-the-aga-khans-iii-and-iv-on-fasting-and-ramadan.pdf)** > > 97.76 KB > [@](#): > > [Aga Khan III] > > “Let us then study the duties of man, as the great majority interpret them, according to the verses of the Koran and the Traditions of the Prophet… The healthy human body is the temple in which the flame of the Holy Spirit burns, and thus it deserves the respect of scrupulous cleanliness and personal hygiene. Prayer is a daily necessity, a direct communication of the spark with the universal flame. Reasonable fasting for a month in every year, provided a man’s health is not impaired thereby, is an essential part of the body’s discipline through which the body learns to renounce all impure desires… Thus far I have described those tenets of Islam which are professed and held in common by all Muslims of any and every sect or subsect.” Sir Sultan Mahomed Shah, Aga Khan III’s autobiography: ‘The Memoirs of Aga Khan III – World Enough and Time’, Chapter 2: Islam, The Religion of My Ancestors, 1954 [http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/1225/](http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/1225/) > [@](#): > > [Aga Khan III] > > "The enemies of Islam have attacked its outward manifestations and constantly attempted to show that its practice (even such essentially elevating manifestations as prayer, fasting, alms, etc.) is impossible in modern and civilised conditions. Unfortunately, the ‘Ulama’ – the savants – have played into the hands of the enemies. The present practices of Islam took shape and form at the time when the schoolmen reigned supreme in East and West alike… If Islam is ever to fulfil its mission it must have a universality not only in space, namely, throughout the earth, but in time, namely, as long as mankind exists on this globe. "We maintain that the Prophet only ordered prayer, fasting, and gentleness in all human relations, kindliness and consideration for all beasts and animals from the smallest worm to the largest mammal… “If, rightly, the Muslims have kept till now to the forms of prayer and fasting as practised at the time of the Prophet, it should not be forgotten that it is not the forms of prayer and fasting that have been commanded, but the facts, and we are entitled to adjust the forms to the facts of life as circumstances changed. It is the same Prophet who advises his followers ever to remain Ibnu 'l-Waqt (i.e. children of the time and period in which they were on earth), and it must be the natural ambition of every Muslim to practise and represent his Faith according to the standard of the Waqt or space-time.” Sir Sultan Mahomed Shah, Aga Khan III’s 1934 Foreword to ‘Muhammad: A Mercy to All Nations’ by Al-Hajj Qassim Ali Jairazbhoy (London, United Kingdom) [http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/10546//](http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/10546//) > [@](#): > > Al-Hajj Qassim Ali Jairazbhoy, the author of this volume, who is to be congratulated on the pains he has taken in giving a faithful portrait of the simple and noble life of the Prophet of Islam, is a well-known figure in Islam and requires no introduction from me. His anxiety to render service to Islam is commendable; and I am glad that lie devotes his leisure to the study of the principles for which Islam stands and explaining the true message of. the Prophet of Islam to the world. The author has done well in showing the great principles of Islam and the mission of its Prophet as a true messenger of the Most High. > > He has made considerable sacrifices for Islam, and his donation of one lakh and twenty-five thousand rupees for founding a chair for Science and Philosophy in the Aligarh University bears witness to his catholic charities and his love for science and philosophy. His various other charities for his co-religionists as well as his contributions to the progress of Islam show his earnest desire to be of service to humanity. > > As he has pointed out, the Holy Prophet of Islam is to us Muslims the last and greatest messenger from the Creator, and through him man is to find salvation in both this world and the next. Our reasons for holding firmly to this Faith (and it is essential to remember that the Prophet asked for Faith — Iman — and not like some other religious teachers for Iqan (1) a point that should be remembered by all Muslims) are that this message is in its nature the essence of man’s spiritual nature. The great religious teachers before and since Muhammad have all limited the area of truth by excluding either some or all of their predecessors. Muhammad, on the other hand, by a full recognition of all his predecessors and by admitting that no people, race, or nation had been left without some kind of divine illumination, gave his Faith universality in the past, and in fact made it coexistent with human history. > > If, now, we turn from its historic background to its doctrine and to its possibility of development in the future, we will find the same potential universality. Take the central principle of “Allah O Akbar.” Here we find on one side divinity, on the other side infinity. For what is the greater — time, space, the starry heavens, intelligence, knowledge? — wherever existence goes there His greatness extends. Greaterness here, to anyone who understands the implications of the Arabic language, does not mean “greaterness” as literally translated into English. It means that everything else is within the womb of the greater — everything else is maintained and sustained by Divine Power, including the furthest spaces of imagination. > > Muhammad told mankind first that the infinite sustainer and container of all existence had justice, mercy, and love as well; secondly, that man through these qualities and through gentleness and kindness, prayer, awe or wonder could get — howsoever infinitesimal proportion — direct communion with the all-embracing power in which he lived and moved and had his being. > > I submit that this doctrine will have a universality that can be accepted as long as man is man and as long as intelligence as we understand it survives on earth. > > The enemies of Islam have attacked its outward manifestations and constantly attempted to show that its practice (even such essentially elevating manifestations as prayer, fasting, alms, etc.) is impossible in modern and civilised conditions. Unfortunately, the “Ulama” — the savants — have played into the hands of the enemies. The present practices of Islam took shape and form at the time when the schoolmen reigned supreme in East and West alike. The Ulama of Islam, like the schoolmen of Europe, built up a fabric which had no relationship with reality. The Renaissance and the intellectual revolutions that followed (and are still going on) have cleared the West from such thraldom, but the Muslim East is only now starling its renaissance. Not only non-Muslims but some Muslims, appalled by the extent and variety of the non-essentials (Furu’at) have almost followed the example of the man who in emptying the waste water from the tub threw the baby with it out of the window. They have almost thrown out the Usulat (essentials). If Islam is ever to fulfil its mission it must have a universality not only in space, namely, throughout the earth, but in time, namely, as long as mankind exists on this globe. > > We maintain that the Prophet only ordered prayer, fasting, and gentleness in all human relations, kindliness and consideration for all beasts and animals from the smallest worm to the largest mammal. By the institution of the Ulu ‘l-Amr — who can be interpreted as Imam and Caliph — and by placing obedience to Ulu ‘l-Amr immediately after that to God and Prophet, he ensured that the Faith would ever remain living, extending, developing with science, knowledge, art, and industry. > > Unlike some of his predecessors he has condemned repression, renunciation, torture (either self-inflicted or on others), dirt and physical corruption. Man is to go through life not indulging in an impossible code of “Resist not evil” but with patience, forbearance, argument, and kindliness — qualities which as even so unfriendly a witness as Mr. H. G. Wells in his History of the World admits, have always been greater in Muslim Society than in any other. They have, in fact, been the outward signs of Islamic countries. This absence of violence, this sweet reasonableness, this readiness to recognise that sex, marriage, parenthood are our highest duties and not sins that can only be legitimised by the fumblings of a priest or by idle ceremonies that invoke fire and rain and the elements to clean up something that is essentially unwholesome. In Islam this is not the attitude towards instincts which are as natural as eating and drinking. Men and women should marry freely with their own choice, and that free choice is the highest and holiest of all blessings. The witnesses come only to insure the legal consequences of the marriage. And if it fails — as it must fail in some cases, given the essential nature of the instincts on which the attraction is founded — a healthy, wholesome, unashamed divorce with stain on neither man nor woman but leaving each free to seek new and happy union is the only solution. > > If, rightly, the Muslims have kept till now to the forms of prayer and fasting as practised at the time of the Prophet, it should not be forgotten that it is not the forms of prayer and fasting that have been commanded, but the facts, and we are entitled to adjust the forms to the facts of life as circumstances changed. It is the same Prophet who advises his followers ever to remain Ibnu ‘l-Waqt (i.e. children of the time and period in which they were on earth), and it must be the natural ambition of every Muslim to practise and represent his Faith according to the standard of the Waqt or space-time. > > Signed: Aga Khan, Geneva, Sept 1934 > > His Highness the Aga Khan III His Highness the Aga Khan’s 1965 The London Sunday Times Interview with Nicholas Tomalin (London, United Kingdom) [http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog](http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog) > [@](#): > > [Interview of Aga Khan IV] > > Nicholas Tomalin: You’ve told me the ways in which your faith makes it easier to come to terms with the modern world. Are there any ways in which it is more difficult? > > Aga Khan: Islam is a way of life, much more than Christianity. That’s is an old, boring thing to say, but it’s true. Now if we are to modernise our society we have to come into contact with totally different traditions. Basically the Ismaili Muslims have a choice between the Communist East, which would prevent us teaching our children the Faith, and the West, which has a set of materialistic and religious standards which are often at variance with ours. Imagine our difficulties seeing a civilisation which is at least twenty years a head of us in roads, hospitals, and standards of living, but which if we imitate too closely will obliterate the reality of our Faith. Sometimes we are faced with the choice of either accepting habits and customs which have proved economically successful in the West, but go against what our Faith tells us to do, or continuing in our old ways, thus jeopardising our economic development. I will give you a simple example. One of our factories making jute, for instance, in East Pakistan. In a Western society a factory like that is working 24 hours a day, six days a week all year round. But in an Islamic society that factory can work 24 hours a day, yes, but with five breaks for prayers and a complete break in the month of Ramadan, when the working force is reduced to less than half by fasting. This is a terrible practical problem. Even among Muslim States they do not agree whether or not to work full time during Ramadan. > > Nicholas Tomalin: How would you advise your communities? > > Aga Khan: I think if it was, say, a steel factory in a time of national emergency, of war or something like that, then I would advise them to work during Ramadan. If it were peace, and the production were not so vital, then I would advise them to observe Ramadan. But the real question is, where does one stop? If we are always importing from the West techniques to develop our economics, how can we stop importing alien ideas? You can imagine the problem. Every time we send our young men to Western Universities seven out of ten of them come back with alien traditions and tendencies of which they may be unconscious. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/16 "2017-06-23T01:59:48Z")
**Ramira** , thank you for your thoughts. You are definitely one of the more liberal-minded Muslims I have met. I think it’s hard for people who are newbs to realize that there are more liberal versions of islam, because much of what’s found online in “primers” and message boards and in most mosques is mainstream Sunni (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali schools) theology. So someone exploring Islam would have to be lucky enough to know more liberal believers to realize that these options/branches of Islam exist. Like, not everyone considers dogs to be impure, or that mosques should be gender segregated. I think your idea that people in the West tend to be more dogmatic because they are more insecure about keeping the faith in a non-Muslim country interesting. I also think that among the different flavors of Islam, Wahabism has been lucky enough to have extremely wealthy benefactors who have financed the its spread from Saudi Arabia to much of the rest of the Muslim world. Then Wahabism crowds out the other forms of Islam and the religion becomes much more strict and homogenized, rather than being flexible and syncretic and incorporating local traditions, which it used to do. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/17 "2017-06-23T02:10:02Z")
Also **Muffin** , thanks for those excerpts! They are fascinating. Sorry I had not seen your post by the time I replied to Ramira, or I would have included you in the previous post. Okay, so to everyone else, here is something of an analogy: Let’s say there was a religion in which believers were required to deprive themselves of sleep for a month every year. Not a crazy amount, but maybe like 60-90 mins less of sleep. Would you be okay with having surgery done on the 25th day of this month if the surgeon was a practicer of this religion? Even if he insisted that he was not impaired, and has a track record of successfully performing surgeries during this month? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/18 "2017-06-23T02:18:20Z")
Surgeons sleep? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/19 "2017-06-23T02:27:39Z")
While I was internet surfing I found someone on a Muslim website who had asked this exact question. I’m not sure if I can cut and paste what they said, but the questioner said her husband was a pharmacist who was starting to give the wrong medications to patients. The answer was basically: no, someone cannot break fast for the purposes of patient safety. If he can’t work at night or find alternative work arrangements he should quit his job. Here is a link > **[Is it permissible for him to break his fast because his work is difficult? -...](https://islamqa.info/en/answers/65803/is-it-permissible-for-him-to-break-his-fast-because-his-work-is-difficult)** I think this is very typical of what you would find if you are a non-Muslim who’s interested in exploring Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610/20 "2017-06-23T02:28:41Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Surgeons sleep? 😉 Yes also, in this world, let’s assume that outside of this month surgeons get a full night’s sleep 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-greater-leniency-towards-fasting-during-ramadan/789610.md?page=2)