# Should there be more conforminity in state gun regulations?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 13, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470 "2015-11-13T16:14:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/1 "2015-11-13T16:14:18Z")
The New York Times has just come out with an article about [how gun traffickers get around state gun laws,](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/12/us/gun-traffickers-smuggling-state-gun-laws.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0) smuggling guns from states with few restrictions to states with greater restrictions. Their map outlines the routes taken, with one pipeline even going from Florida to Puerto Rico.
Too many times I’ve heard the argument that more restrictive gun laws are useless so why bother to put them in, but I think this points out _why_ they are not working-No state(Hawaii excluded;)) is an island. Is greater conformity in gun laws a possibility without setting off a firestorm of scare campaigns?
---
### Author:  [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/2 "2015-11-13T16:29:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> The New York Times has just come out with an article about [how gun traffickers get around state gun laws,](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/12/us/gun-traffickers-smuggling-state-gun-laws.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0) smuggling guns from states with few restrictions to states with greater restrictions. Their map outlines the routes taken, with one pipeline even going from Florida to Puerto Rico.
> Too many times I’ve heard the argument that more restrictive gun laws are useless so why bother to put them in, but I think this points out _why_ they are not working-No state(Hawaii excluded;)) is an island. Is greater conformity in gun laws a possibility without setting off a firestorm of scare campaigns?
I’m all for having a federally mandated regulation. I think the main problem(s) you’d run up against are many:
The federal ones likely to pass would in no way be harsh enough for some states and the states would then pass harsher ones anyway resulting in the same ‘relaxed vs harsh’ state distribution we have now. Unless you have found a way to keep States from passing their own laws regarding guns?
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/3 "2015-11-13T16:32:03Z")
> [@Kearsen](#):
>
> I’m all for having a federally mandated regulation. I think the main problem(s) you’d run up against are many:
>
> The federal ones likely to pass would in no way be harsh enough for some states and the states would then pass harsher ones anyway resulting in the same ‘relaxed vs harsh’ state distribution we have now. Unless you have found a way to keep States from passing their own laws regarding guns?
As long as the federal ones were tighter than the lowest state regulations, then the _overall_ level would be higher, wouldn’t it?
---
### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/4 "2015-11-13T16:39:55Z")
I think that greater conformity is possible, and legal, but there are already Federal laws that are being broken every time those people go from state to state to buy guns and bring them back. I’m strictly speaking about handguns here. To legally buy a handgun in one state as a resident of another, it must be transferred through an FFL dealer with a NICS background check.
Since we are speaking about controlling illegal activities here, would throwing more laws at it make a difference? People are willingly breaking Federal rules here. I’m not sure that a few more between states would make much of a change at all.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/5 "2015-11-13T16:48:11Z")
> [@JXJohns](#):
>
> I think that greater conformity is possible, and legal, but there are already Federal laws that are being broken every time those people go from state to state to buy guns and bring them back. I’m strictly speaking about handguns here. To legally buy a handgun in one state as a resident of another, it must be transferred through an FFL dealer with a NICS background check.
>
> Since we are speaking about controlling illegal activities here, would throwing more laws at it make a difference? People are willingly breaking Federal rules here. I’m not sure that a few more between states would make much of a change at all.
We “throw more laws” at thieves, murderers, traffic violators, rapists, etc. and they all still exist-are you proposing that these laws are ineffectual and should be eliminated? Did you read the article and understand why the _difference_ in regulations is causing major problem? For instance:
> [@](#):
>
> Chicago offers perhaps the starkest example of trafficking. There are no retail gun dealers within city limits, because Chicago has some of the tightest municipal gun regulations. Yet bringing a gun into Chicago can be as simple as driving less than an hour to a gun show in Indiana, where private sales are not recorded and do not require a background check.
Yes, if this source was plugged up, it might be possible to get guns elsewhere…but the supply isn’t infinite, and at least there might be less of a problem. In my neck of the woods, a smaller problem is better than a bigger problem, if you can’t solve the problem totally.
---
### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/6 "2015-11-13T16:56:56Z")
The eternal problem with the gun debate is that the people who suffer the most from the easy availability of cheap handguns are black and Hispanic minorities in urban centers with lots of gang activity, but the sort of legislation that might help them out needs to be approved and passed with the support of white suburban and rural voters who have no compelling interest to make their own lives slightly more inconvenient to help people they have no cultural connection with.
So yes, conformity in gun laws might help, along with much stricter tracking of gun sales, but good luck getting those gun show enthusiasts in Indiana to give 2 shits about folks in South Chicago. I think you answered your own question in your OP.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/7 "2015-11-13T17:00:05Z")
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to note how many of Chicago’s tight gun control restrictions have been found unconstitutional… MacDonald v. Chicago, Moore v. Madigan, and Ezell v. Chicago come to mind.
By this reminder I mean to argue that Chicago’s tight restrictions are not the goal to aim for.
---
### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/8 "2015-11-13T17:01:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> We “throw more laws” at thieves, murderers, traffic violators, rapists, etc. and they all still exist-are you proposing that these laws are ineffectual and should be eliminated? Did you read the article and understand why the _difference_ in regulations is causing major problem? For instance:
> Yes, if this source was plugged up, it might be possible to get guns elsewhere…but the supply isn’t infinite, and at least there might be less of a problem. In my neck of the woods, a smaller problem is better than a bigger problem, if you can’t solve the problem totally.
My point is that the Federal laws already cover state to state transfers and according to the article, _that I read_, are being broken on a regular basis. You want to plug up the source? Great. Lets make it a law that all sales of handguns between residents of different states will require a background check and FFL dealer transfer. That will force every sale to be recorded and have a trail that law enforcement can use to solve crimes. I bet we can agree on that right?
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/9 "2015-11-13T17:05:20Z")
> [@JXJohns](#):
>
> My point is that the Federal laws already cover state to state transfers and according to the article, _that I read_, are being broken on a regular basis. You want to plug up the source? Great. Lets make it a law that all sales of handguns between residents of different states will require a background check and FFL dealer transfer. That will force every sale to be recorded and have a trail that law enforcement can use to solve crimes. I bet we can agree on that right?
I can definitely get behind that.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/10 "2015-11-13T17:06:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Perhaps it would be worthwhile to note how many of Chicago’s tight gun control restrictions have been found unconstitutional… MacDonald v. Chicago, Moore v. Madigan, and Ezell v. Chicago come to mind.
>
> By this reminder I mean to argue that Chicago’s tight restrictions are not the goal to aim for.
So what _should_ be aimed for, if there is to be any conformity?
---
### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/11 "2015-11-13T17:13:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> I can definitely get behind that.
So can I. It’s already the law.
> [@](#):
>
> 1. [May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?](https://www.atf.gov/file/61721/download)
> Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual
> who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully
> transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a
> Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then
> receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background
> check.
What is missing is the ability to make people follow it.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/12 "2015-11-13T17:20:00Z")
> [@JXJohns](#):
>
> So can I. It’s already the law.
> What is missing is the ability to make people follow it.
What about that quote I provided concerning private sales in Indiana? They are not recorded and do not require a background check. Does this not make such a law a joke, more or less?
---
### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/13 "2015-11-13T17:33:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> What about that quote I provided concerning private sales in Indiana? They are not recorded and do not require a background check. Does this not make such a law a joke, more or less?
OK, we are closer than you think on this. Yes, this law is a pain for those who follow it and a joke to anyone else. Living in Iowa, if I want to give a gun to my friend in Minnesota, I have to go to my FFL, and pay $50 plus shipping to send it to his FFL in MN. He has to go to the dealer, pay $50 for a transfer fee and take possession of the gun. OR, when we see them on Thanksgiving, I just give it to him.
My point is that creating additional laws to be broken is not going to plug the hole. People are already breaking the laws that are supposed to force the documentation of sales today. If you have two parties today willing to break federal law to buy/sell a gun, I don’t know that making state laws regarding sales similar or the same would make a difference.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/14 "2015-11-13T17:36:17Z")
> [@JXJohns](#):
>
> OK, we are closer than you think on this. Yes, this law is a pain for those who follow it and a joke to anyone else. Living in Iowa, if I want to give a gun to my friend in Minnesota, I have to go to my FFL, and pay $50 plus shipping to send it to his FFL in MN. He has to go to the dealer, pay $50 for a transfer fee and take possession of the gun. OR, when we see them on Thanksgiving, I just give it to him.
>
> My point is that creating additional laws to be broken is not going to plug the hole. People are already breaking the laws that are supposed to force the documentation of sales today. If you have two parties today willing to break federal law to buy/sell a gun, I don’t know that making state laws regarding sales similar or the same would make a difference.
And your better idea is…?
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/15 "2015-11-13T18:01:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> And your better idea is…?
Eliminate unconstitutional restrictions on guns.
Accept that in a federal system, we have dual sovereigns in the states and the federal government, and that therefore conformity in any state laws, gun or otherwise, is not a realistic or desirable goal.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/16 "2015-11-13T18:10:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Eliminate unconstitutional restrictions on guns.
>
> Accept that in a federal system, we have dual sovereigns in the states and the federal government, and that therefore conformity in any state laws, gun or otherwise, is not a realistic or desirable goal.
How do you think the map provided by The New York Times would look if this were done?
---
### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/17 "2015-11-13T18:17:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> What about that quote I provided concerning private sales in Indiana? They are not recorded and do not require a background check. Does this not make such a law a joke, more or less?
Those transfers between individuals who reside in different states is illegal. Did you know that? People who engage in that type of transaction are already breaking federal law.
As a resident of CA, I would love to go to nearby NV and buy firearms. I can’t and don’t because it’s illegal. Shit, I have grandfathered magazines that I do not bring to out of state shooting trips because once I do so they are no longer allowed re-entry back into the state. Yes, this would virtually never get identified, but I follow the law.
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> As long as the federal ones were tighter than the lowest state regulations, then the _overall_ level would be higher, wouldn’t it?
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> So what _should_ be aimed for, if there is to be any conformity?
As long as federal laws were stricter than the lowest state regulations, then the overall level would be higher, yes. But I think if there were conformity it wouldn’t go in the direction you would want. If there must be conformity - it should be as permissive as possible. I suggest a model similar to Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, Maine, Vermont, or Wyoming. Florida is an option too.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/18 "2015-11-13T18:32:22Z")
> [@Bone](#):
>
> As long as federal laws were stricter than the lowest state regulations, then the overall level would be higher, yes. But I think if there were conformity it wouldn’t go in the direction you would want. If there must be conformity - it should be as permissive as possible. I suggest a model similar to Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, Maine, Vermont, or Wyoming. Florida is an option too.
Let us suppose, for the purpose of this thread, that the goal was to change the regulations so that the gunrunning that was described in the article I linked to in the OP was made more difficult.
---
### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/19 "2015-11-13T18:35:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> And your better idea is…?
Significantly increase the numbers of prosecutions of straw purchases. If the existing laws do not have sharp enough teeth, get them that way. Few gun owners would balk at the idea of stiffer penalties and more prosecutions of those bringing down the rest of us. [Here](http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/milwaukee-man-to-be-sentenced-on-gun-fraud-charge-b99560011z1-322283481.html) is a case of a guy charged with 55 counts of illegal gun running who was let go with a year probation. He put 27 guns on the street with absolutely no significant consequences. This has to stop.
[Here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/10/14/the-multimillion-dollar-wisconsin-gun-store-verdict-that-could-reverberate-in-the-gun-debate/) is a case, also in Wisconsin where a dealer was hit with a significant judgement for selling guns to a known straw purchaser. The problem is, EVERYONE in town knew that shop was the place to go to get guns. If everyone knew that, the Feds should have also and shut them down. Only with significant penalties and the threat of jail time will this go away. It shouldn’t be easier in Milwaukee for an underage kid to have someone buy him a gun from a licensed dealer vs buying him beer. Complacency on both sides of the transaction, including local law enforcement, enable such behavior.
This is where I would start. Prosecute both sides of the transactions with laws already in place. Start taking away gun rights and FFLs from those who willingly break the laws.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470/20 "2015-11-13T18:43:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> How do you think the map provided by The New York Times would look if this were done?
I would imagine there wouldn’t be so many swooping red arrows.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-more-conforminity-in-state-gun-regulations/737470.md?page=2)