# Should there be opposite-sex role models for children of gay parents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990 "2009-05-01T17:14:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/1 "2009-05-01T17:14:20Z")
A book called [“Adoptive and Foster Parent Screening”](http://books.google.com/books?id=p7ReHKEYbiMC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=gay+parents+opposite+sex+role+model&source=bl&ots=7l_32aEg68&sig=9fvoH7HPVCB51umXrc0KXH3SDaY&hl=en#PPA49,M1) states: > [@](#): > > “A promise to provide a child with an opposite-sex role model is not good enough. The applicant must have a history of successful relationships with the opposite sex. If that is not the case, the applicant should be encouraged to postpone adoption plans until he or she can demonstrate that an appropriate opposite-sex role model for a child can be provided.” (pages 49-49) Focus on the Family’s website, [citizenlink.org](http://www.citizenlink.org/FOSI/marriage/ssuap/A000009166.cfm), goes into more detail when it states: > [@](#): > > Same-sex parenting fails to adequately meet the parenting needs of children > > Different is good. Much of the value mothers and fathers bring to their children is due to the fact that female and male are different. The cooperative relationship of male and female in marriage blends their differences to provide a child with good things that same-sex caregivers cannot. > > Balance is key. Fathers tend to encourage children to take chances and push limits, and mothers tend to be protective and more cautious, and each approach is essential for a child’s healthy development. When either parenting style is extreme it can have an unhealthy effect on children, but together the different approaches of a mother and father are balanced to nurture the child, expand his experiences and give him confidence. > > Opposite-sex parents contribute uniquely to child development. Dr. David Popenoe says, “We should disavow the notion that ‘mommies can make good daddies,’ just as we should disavow the popular notion of radical feminists that ‘daddies can make good mommies.’ …The two sexes are different to the core, and each is necessary – culturally and biologically – for the optimal development of a human being.”1 And according to NARTH [(page 50 of the linked pdf)](http://www.narth.com/docs/RationaleBasisFinal0405.pdf) > [@](#): > > Only a Home With a Mother and Father Provides the Best Set of Role Models that Can Best Meet the Unique Needs of a Foster Child > A reasonable basis for the Arkansas regulation is grounded in the universally recognized and scientifically documented set of significant physical and psychological differences between the sexes. Foster children particularly have lost a positive role model of a married mother and father, and a household headed by two individuals of the same anatomic sex inherently cannot provide the best model for family living for such a child. The State of Arkansas has a legitimate interest in promoting childrearing in foster homes that provide both male and female role models. Because marriages consist of both a man and a woman, they provide special advantages to raising children. In a foster home headed by a qualified married couple, “children see and experience the innate and unique abilities and Characteristics that each sex possesses and contributes to their combined endeavor. Children, thus, learn lessons for later life by seeing both parents working together in child rearing.”168 [John Gonsiorek, president-elect of the American Psychological Association states the opposite:](http://www.apgl.asso.fr/documents/GLPCI_1.htm) > [@](#): > > For example, one of the psychological variables studied in lesbian and gay parenting research is the presence or absence of adult role models of the opposite sex. “Slavishly trying to make certain that there are two sexes that the child is exposed to is not the point,” says Gonsiorek. “The point is the quality of the interactions - having consistent adults with quality parenting skills is central. If the opposite sex adults come and go, and only hang around for a few years, that’s not good for the child.” So, do children of same-sex parents need to have more positive role models to make sure there’s a balance of gender represented (than opposite-sex parents)? (I’m the “second dad”, as they call me, to my partner’s children and they live with us full time. So this topic is a bit personal for me.) ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/2 "2009-05-01T17:23:47Z")
Of course in an ideal world, kids having deep meaningful relationships with members of both sexes would be great. But we just don’t live in that world. The kids down the street live with their widowed grandmother because their mother is too messed up to raise children. Their primary interaction is with a woman and there aren’t any fabulous male role models in their lives. Other kids I know live with their dad because their mom died a few years ago. They don’t have a strong female caring for them. This happens all the time. I don’t see why we should make such an issue of gays and lesbians. A huge percent of kids are raised in single parent homes. The lesbian couple I know who have 2 strong female parent figures are models of stability compared to what a lot of kids go through. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/3 "2009-05-01T17:33:55Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > So, do children of same-sex parents need to have more positive role models to make sure there’s a balance of gender represented (than opposite-sex parents)? Ideally, children should have both women and men who have close, loving, nurturing relationships with them. Not so much because I think men and women parent that differently, but because kids need to learn that both men and women are capable of being loving caregivers. That caregiver can be a grandmother/grandfather, an aunt/uncle, a close family friend, etc.–it doesn’t have to be a parent. However, as \*\*autz \*\*points out, there are plenty of kids being raised by heterosexual parents (or grandparents) who lack good male or female caregivers. It sucks for them, too. Especially if we’re talking about kids who would otherwise languish in the foster-care system, I’d much rather see them with two responsible adults of any gender. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/4 "2009-05-01T17:40:33Z")
Don’t worry about it, **stpauler**. Kids find opposite sex role models (teachers come to mind first), and the argument they can’t get them if they have same-sex parents is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/5 "2009-05-01T18:06:40Z")
The question I’d ask is how many exceptions does it take to abandon the idea, i.e. how many healthy children raised by gay couples and how many screwed-up children raised by straight couples would we need to demonstrate that gay or straight parents isn’t by itself a critical factor. I’m basically asking if the premise of “children are best raised by hetero couples” is falsifiable. ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/6 "2009-05-01T20:32:57Z")
Should there be opposite sex role models? Complicated question, that one. My partner and I are both female, parenting our son. I think it’s simplistic to narrow role models into a dichotomy: male and female. Yes, I believe that children should have a variety of role models. Yes, we make an effort to see that our son gets to hang out and have quality time with men. He’s still pretty young, but as he grows I would also like to see that he has time with people who are athletic, artistic, musical, mechanically inclined, scientific, religious, outgoing, introspective, etc., etc. Children benefit from a gamut of experiences. Gender differences are only one part of life. > [@](#): > > Fathers tend to encourage children to take chances and push limits, and mothers tend to be protective and more cautious, and each approach is essential for a child’s healthy development. The problem with this statement is that children are raised by individuals, not statistics. OK, so men _tend_ to take chances. What about the child whose dad is cautious, right? Wow, the kid must sure be missing out on some proper role modeling! Is the dad really fit to be a parent? He’s sure not fulfilling his proper role. As far as I’m concerned, these statements are meaningless when you try to apply them to specific families. > [@](#): > > …children see and experience the innate and unique abilities and Characteristics that each sex possesses and contributes to their combined endeavor. As for this statement, I do think that biological sex does influence how people behave. Hormones, etc. are powerful forces. But I also think that gender roles are overdetermined in our culture, and what is perceived to be _innate_ ain’t necessarily so. To me, just looking at the group of people I hang out with on a regular basis, I see women with few mothering instincts and men who are very nurturing. This is true for all the various characteristics that are supposedly so innate. Truth is, for one family, for the individuals in that family, few of these characteristics may align they way they’re supposed to, according to this theory of innate characteristics – even if the parents have opposite genders. Won’t someone think of _their_ children? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/7 "2009-05-01T21:56:30Z")
Should? Well, I think that children should have a wide variety of influences in their lives: people of different genders, races, religions, cultures, political viewpoints, etc. But that’s different than “must” or “ideal.” I find these claims that a male-female environment is ideal for children very suspicious, and lacking in rigorous empirical analysis. It seems to me people use an arbitrary definition of what’s ideal based on their own preconceived notions. ---
**Author:** ![CRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRich)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/8 "2009-05-01T22:01:39Z")
Through the ages there have been plenty of children successfully raised in a single-gender family–how about Jesus himself? He was raised by his widowed mother who never remarried. Do we declaim his lack of a male role model? While it’s a great idea to provide kids with significant experiences with both genders, that doesn’t seem to be a make-or-break factor in successful child rearing. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/9 "2009-05-01T22:03:42Z")
[QUOTE=stpauler] So, do children of same-sex parents need to have more positive role models to make sure there’s a balance of gender represented (than opposite-sex parents)? [/QUOTE] On first reading, this sounds like more homophobia coming the types of groups that believe that a 16 year old girl by default is more qualified to raise a child alone than two fully grown adults of the same sex. (I would argue this is a case by case situation). As a child of a single parent raised with no paternal contact, I would argue that children need as many positive role models in their lives as is possible regardless of the gender of their parents. But I have no factual basis for this argument, only anecdotes. I would flat out ignore the 2nd and 3rd links that you provided based solely on who was providing them. They both seem to be pretty extreme on the right end of the spectrum. The mission statement of the third states that they are devoted to therapeutically removing a person’s unwanted homosexuality. That being said, I can see a grain of truth to the statement “Fathers tend to encourage children to take chances and push limits, and mothers tend to be protective and more cautious”. But only if the words “mothers” and “fathers” are replaced by the phrase “some parents”. As long as the parents are attempting to raise well rounded adults who are able to push limits and take chances when necessary, while still protecting the children from things that will truly harm them, who cares what the genders of the parents are? Disclaimer: I am not a parent, so my opinions on child rearing are academic at best and may be flat out wrong at worst. Also, I am not a homosexual so what works best in a homosexual relationship is far outside any expertise that I could lay claim to. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/10 "2009-05-01T22:32:14Z")
> [@CRich](#): > > how about Jesus himself? He was raised by his widowed mother Who do you think you are, Nietzche? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/11 "2009-05-01T22:36:43Z")
Whether the parents are heterosexual or homosexual I would think the most important thing would be for the children to have a loving environment and a stable home. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/12 "2009-05-01T22:42:28Z")
FWIW, in overturning a ban on same sex adoption in Florida recently, the defendants where unable to convice the court that there was a worthwhile benefit to opposite sex parenting. > **[Judge overturns Florida ban on adoption by gays - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/25/florida.gay.adoption/index.html)** > > A Florida circuit judge Tuesday struck down a 31-year-old state law that prevents gays and lesbians from adopting children, allowing a North Miami man to adopt two half-brothers he and his partner have raised as foster children since 2004. > [@](#): > > Several organizations – including the National Adoption Center, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics – have said that having gay and lesbian parents does not negatively affect children. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/13 "2009-05-01T22:43:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Who do you think you are, Nietzche? Nietzche? I don’t even _know_ he! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/14 "2009-05-01T22:47:36Z")
I suppose my confusion is why sex is the only point on which alternate role models are valuable. The differences in humanity that it’s worth providing role models of aren’t constrained solely by “male” and “female” - we couldn’t simply select one male and one female person and guarantee ourselves that within them is contained the entire range of respectable human behaviour. Yet it is the sex of the role models that’s apparently hugely important, and not actual celebrateable characteristics. We don’t need to ensure that parents are honourable, or kind, or generous, or just, or pleasant, or wise, or good with kids - but, by golly, we’d better make sure one’s male and one’s female, 'cos those are the important things. Of all the things to concentrate on, I don’t think it’s the factor i’d select first. Come back to me when you have plans to ensure kids get all those nice things in their role models; then you can start talking to me about selecting for gender. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/15 "2009-05-01T22:59:52Z")
**Same-Sex Parenting Fails To Meet Needs of [del]Children[/del] Religious Busybodies, Study Says** In a shocking new study released today by the Institute of Justifying Homophobic Impulses, located in Eye Socket, Montana, scientists announce that same-sex parenting fails to provide children with the proper levels of religious indoctrination against gays that church leaders recommend. Dr. Jeffery Bluenose, head of the Institute’s department of Making Shit Up, quoted statistics from his exhaustive research of Bible passages that indicated same-sex parents were unable to provide a mystical certain something. “Obviously, it would be bad for children if they didn’t have this something, which can only be provided by a traditional marriage of a man and a woman.” When asked what the something might be, Bluenose stared at his clipboard before making several erasures. “I’m still working on that.” According to the data amassed by the Institute’s Bullshit Database, the something would have to be something which two same-sex parents could not provide, but which one same-sex parent could. “And obviously there’s a gayness quotient,” Bluenose added, with the pencil in his mouth. “I’m just not sure how to quantify it.” Further research suggests that same-sex couples should be forbidden from living in the same house, touching, exchanging emails, or consuming food. Bluenose promises to have conclusive evidence as soon as he can find the pencil sharpener. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/16 "2009-05-01T23:29:28Z")
> [@autz](#): > > Of course in an ideal world, kids having deep meaningful relationships with members of both sexes would be great. > > But we just don’t live in that world. > > The kids down the street live with their widowed grandmother because their mother is too messed up to raise children. Their primary interaction is with a woman and there aren’t any fabulous male role models in their lives. > > Other kids I know live with their dad because their mom died a few years ago. They don’t have a strong female caring for them. > > This happens all the time. I don’t see why we should make such an issue of gays and lesbians. A huge percent of kids are raised in single parent homes. > > The lesbian couple I know who have 2 strong female parent figures are models of stability compared to what a lot of kids go through. **autz** really said everything I was going to say. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/17 "2009-05-01T23:36:58Z")
> [@burundi](#): > > Ideally, children should have both women and men who have close, loving, nurturing relationships with them. Not so much because I think men and women parent that differently, but because kids need to learn that both men and women are capable of being loving caregivers. That caregiver can be a grandmother/grandfather, an aunt/uncle, a close family friend, etc.–it doesn’t have to be a parent. Genders ARE NOT the same, or even similar. The Focus on the Family analysis described the dynamic with me and my wife perfectly. I encourage risk taking and she is more cautious. Though in my experience homosexual couples tend to fall into a power dynamic that mirrors that of heterosexual relationships where someone is more forceful and another is more nurturing. Homosexual couples can be good parents without having to create a false equivalency between the genders. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/18 "2009-05-01T23:40:32Z")
If I look at history, what I see is that (1) it was quite common for children to be separated from one or both parents by war, disease, famine, or economic conditions and (2) the primary living arrangement (with the exception of the upper classes) was communal: extended families, apprenticeships, military or religious institutions, etc. Now, my reading of history probably is completely influenced by the fact that my parents came from India at a time when extended families were the norm. All of my parents generation and about half of my generation live/lived in an extended family environment. So, if I were to use the same type of reasoning that the people like Focus on the Family use, I’d be going around to nuclear straight families, and telling them that they are not raising their children in an ideal environment and that they need to move in with their relatives. Most people would look at me like I was crazy if I did that. But that’s exactly what the OP’s cites are doing. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/19 "2009-05-01T23:51:26Z")
> [@CRich](#): > > Through the ages there have been plenty of children successfully raised in a single-gender family–how about Jesus himself? He was raised by his widowed mother who never remarried. Do we declaim his lack of a male role model? Which bible are you reading? In the one I read he was raised by his Mother and Step-Father Joseph. Also, she wasn’t a widow, she was a virgin. There is no statement that she was married before. Nietzche is dead. -God ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/20 "2009-05-01T23:51:47Z")
> [@CRich](#): > > (H)ow about Jesus himself? He was raised by his widowed mother who never remarried. Do we declaim his lack of a male role model? Well, in those days, a male role model would’ve taught him how to at least read! 😃 Like other posters, this is a case-by-case thing for me. Most of my friends think it’s crazy that I actually was raised by a mom AND a dad who are not divorced. Most of my divorced parents friends who were raised by just dad or mom claim a lack in understanding the opposite sex, mainly because their closest examples turned out to be NOT okay. I don’t know their exact details or what led them to feel that way. I’m a small guy, not exactly Pro-wrestler size or even firefighter size. Kids learn soon enough that not only are men and women different, but men are different than other men, women are different from other women, thin, fat, short, tall, smart, stupid, trustworthy, untrustworthy, etc. My cousins and other family youngins might think Cousin Locrian is funny and silly, but Cousin Locrian won’t be entering World’s Strongest Man competitions, or even arm-wrestling competitions, but they’ll see me wash my dishes and be polite at least. Providing a safe and loving home has a lot more to do with just having a male and female handy. **Stpauler** , it sounds like you do your best with your mate’s kids. Keep it all up. How many men (straight or gay) can say the same? It’s clearly the toughest job in the world to be a good parent these days. Your sexuality is certainly not the issue. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990.md?page=2)