# Should there be opposite-sex role models for children of gay parents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990 "2009-05-01T17:14:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/21 "2009-05-02T04:42:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, she wasn’t a widow, she was a virgin. There is no statement that she was married before. What does that have to do with the fact that Joseph apparently died before she did? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/22 "2009-05-02T05:02:09Z")
> [@CRich](#): > > . . . how about Jesus himself? He was raised by his widowed mother who never remarried. :dubious: Yeah, and look what happened to him. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/23 "2009-05-02T05:04:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Also, she wasn’t a widow, she was a virgin. The two are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/24 "2009-05-02T05:15:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Which bible are you reading? In the one I read he was raised by his Mother and Step-Father Joseph. Also, she wasn’t a widow, she was a virgin. Considering that the bible mentions Jesus’ younger brothers, I don’t think she stayed a virgin.😉 As for the OP, how is it any different from single parents raising a child? Ideally a single mom or dad, a gay couple, or a lesbian couple would have a trusted sibling/friend/aunt or uncle/grandparent of the opposite sex spend time with their child. It’s not always possible, but it’s something positive for the adults involved to encourage. I don’t think it should be required to approve the adoption, though. They don’t try that when they allow single hetro people adopt, do they? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/25 "2009-05-02T05:59:18Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > **Same-Sex Parenting Fails To Meet Needs of [del]Children[/del] Religious Busybodies, Study Says** > > In a shocking new study released today by the Institute of Justifying Homophobic Impulses, located in Eye Socket, Montana, scientists announce that same-sex parenting fails to provide children with the proper levels of religious indoctrination against gays that church leaders recommend. > > Dr. Jeffery Bluenose, head of the Institute’s department of Making Shit Up, quoted statistics from his exhaustive research of Bible passages that indicated same-sex parents were unable to provide a mystical certain something. “Obviously, it would be bad for children if they didn’t have this something, which can only be provided by a traditional marriage of a man and a woman.” > > When asked what the something might be, Bluenose stared at his clipboard before making several erasures. “I’m still working on that.” > > According to the data amassed by the Institute’s Bullshit Database, the something would have to be something which two same-sex parents could not provide, but which one same-sex parent could. “And obviously there’s a gayness quotient,” Bluenose added, with the pencil in his mouth. “I’m just not sure how to quantify it.” > > Further research suggests that same-sex couples should be forbidden from living in the same house, touching, exchanging emails, or consuming food. Bluenose promises to have conclusive evidence as soon as he can find the pencil sharpener. lmao I think that sums up Focus on family ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/26 "2009-05-02T06:10:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Don’t worry about it, **stpauler**. Kids find opposite sex role models (teachers come to mind first), and the argument they can’t get them if they have same-sex parents is bullshit. This. Your answer gets right to the point and cuts through the double talk. There’s a whole world full of (good and bad) role models out there. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/27 "2009-05-02T06:56:57Z")
I want to point out that gays and lesbians don’t raise their children in bell jars, sealed away from contact with opposite-gender people. The child is going to be exposed to people of the opposite gender from the parents whether they plan it that way or not. Actually, AFAIK most gay and lesbian parents go out of their way to ensure that the children have close adult figures (other family members or close family friends) of the opposite gender. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/28 "2009-05-02T13:06:57Z")
It always amazes me that the anti-aborftion crowd who is so intent on forcing single woman and woman with abusive partners to give birth are so against gay adoption because “children need a mother and a father.” Should pregnant single (divorced, widowed) woman be forced to give birth and give the child to the “right” couple? If a mother or father dies, should the children go to the “right” couple? Yes, it is important for children to have the “right” parents–parents who see they are well taken care of, well educated, and well loved. How a single parent or a gay couple cannot do that as well (or better) than the “right” couple. The opinion of a person who grew up in a hetro, abusive home and has watched her lesbian sister and her partners (she was widowed and current has another partner) raise four (the first one) and two (the second one) fine children. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/29 "2009-05-02T13:35:44Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The two are not mutually exclusive. Well show me in the bible where it says she was a widow. Otherwise I’ll put that in the, “I just made up a bunch of shit.”, category. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/30 "2009-05-02T13:36:44Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Considering that the bible mentions Jesus’ younger brothers, I don’t think she stayed a virgin.😉 Where does it mention his brothers? But also, I conceded that she married Joseph. The idea that she was a widow when Jesus was born was just revisionism on the part of **CRich**. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/31 "2009-05-02T13:56:07Z")
Even if one concedes that gay parents aren’t completely ideal because of the gender role model stuff, families don’t end at the parents. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins can also play a big part in the development of children. It’s not like gay families are necessarily more isolated than other nuclear families. Unless they are rejected by homophobic relatives, which happens because of Focus on the Family et al. bullshit! If these people were really concerned about strong families, they would be encouraging familial acceptance of homosexual parenting so that the children enjoy the richness of a big, diverse loving family. What they are doing is encouraging familial rejection, in the process making the so-called “problem” worse. If the grandparents shun the gay son and his husband, and therefore the children, how can they turn around and blame the couple if the children turn out “wrong”? Parenting doesn’t stop when the children are grown up. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/32 "2009-05-02T14:02:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Even if one concedes that gay parents aren’t completely ideal because of the gender role model stuff, families don’t end at the parents. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins can also play a big part in the development of children. It’s not like gay families are necessarily more isolated than other nuclear families. > > Unless they are rejected by homophobic relatives, which happens because of Focus on the Family et al. bullshit! If these people were really concerned about strong families, they would be encouraging familial acceptance of homosexual parenting so that the children enjoy the richness of a big, diverse loving family. What they are doing is encouraging familial rejection, in the process making the so-called “problem” worse. If the grandparents shun the gay son and his husband, and therefore the children, how can they turn around and blame the couple if the children turn out “wrong”? Parenting doesn’t stop when the children are grown up. Agreed. I think that often the Christian fundie types try very hard to PROVE that their ideology is correct by manufacturing the conditions for it. It is times like these that I really hope they are right about their religion and that they will sit in judgment before Christ. I wonder what he’ll say. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/33 "2009-05-02T14:33:34Z")
I’ve often wished that every woman who wants to give her child up to adoption would give it to a gay or lesbian couple. That would certainly put a spoke in the wheels of many in the anti-abortion crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/34 "2009-05-02T15:22:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Even if one concedes that gay parents aren’t completely ideal because of the gender role model stuff, families don’t end at the parents. And aren’t these the same crowds of people going on and on about sports figures, violence on television, public figures, actors, Hollywood, and so forth, because children need good role models? Role models are _everywhere._ Everybody’s got a TV nowadays, and if not, they have friends, and their friends have parents. Speaking of role-model behavior, it’s probably best not to analyze too closely those “man-woman” relationships that contain incest, domestic abuse, divorce, fighting, remarrying, divorcing and marrying someone else, fathers who aren’t manly enough, mothers who aren’t obedient enough, and parents who don’t go to church. You cannot assume that simply because it’s a man-woman couple that it’s magically got all the right role-model behaviors children need. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/35 "2009-05-02T16:02:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Where does it mention his brothers? > > But also, I conceded that she married Joseph. The idea that she was a widow when Jesus was born was just revisionism on the part of **CRich**. Jesus’s _adelphoi_ are mentioned in Matthew 12:46 and 13:55, in John 2:12, and in Acts 1:14. There’s just a touch of an issue here: _adelphoi_ normally means “brothers” in the common sense of “other male child of one or both of one’s parents” but also meant “cousins” in Koine Greek, leaving a smidgen of wiggle room for the Perpetual Virginity wonks. But your inference that **CRich** meant “widow at His birth” is reading into his post. What he said was “He [Jesus] was raised by his widowed mother who never remarried.” We know that Joseph was alive until Jesus was 12, from Luke 2:41ff. We can be reasonably sure that he was dead before He was 30, since he is never mentioned after Jesus begins His ministry, and the giving of Mary to John on the Cross was the sort of thing one did for one’s widowed mother when dying – if her husband were alive, there would have been no need to provide for her. There’s also some inferential evidence that Joseph was significantly older than Mary, which I’d hesitate to try to defend as definitive but which suggests “probably true” in the absence of any other evidence. Many are of the opinion that Joseph died soon after the Temple scene in Luke 2, leaving Mary widowed during His adolescence. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/36 "2009-05-02T16:25:03Z")
The problem with that is he said, “Raised by his widowed Mother”, so even if Joseph died when Jesus was 12, most of Jesus’s childhood would have included a Father figure. ---
**Author:** ![CRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRich)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/37 "2009-05-02T18:23:13Z")
Well, I don’t want to split hairs here, but losing your father at twelve means there’s still a heck of a lot of growing up to do–wouldn’t you generally give credit to a widow or widower who raised a child on their own from middle school to adulthood? I never intended to imply that Jesus was raised from birth by his mother alone–the point that I was trying to make was that Jesus’ own example was that of a child who, for much of his formative years, only had one parental figure. If that’s an example that offends you, there are plenty of other successful adults who have been raised by single-gender parents. While I agree that mothers and fathers have unique and differing roles to play in the development of their children, wouldn’t you also agree that families come in all different shapes and sizes and that a child who is missing one criteria–having just one gender of parent present throughout his childhood and development into adulthood–can grow up to be a fine and fully functional adult? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/38 "2009-05-02T18:27:42Z")
> [@CRich](#): > > Well, I don’t want to split hairs here, but losing your father at twelve means there’s still a heck of a lot of growing up to do–wouldn’t you generally give credit to a widow or widower who raised a child on their own from middle school to adulthood? Not in ancient times. Remember the traditional Jewish ceremony recognizing manhood is at 13. > [@](#): > > I never intended to imply that Jesus was raised from birth by his mother alone–the point that I was trying to make was that Jesus’ own example was that of a child who, for much of his formative years, only had one parental figure. If that’s an example that offends you, there are plenty of other successful adults who have been raised by single-gender parents. The formative years are until you are six. It’s not so much that it offends me as much as it is wrong. > [@](#): > > While I agree that mothers and fathers have unique and differing roles to play in the development of their children, wouldn’t you also agree that families come in all different shapes and sizes and that a child who is missing one criteria–having just one gender of parent present throughout his childhood and development into adulthood–can grow up to be a fine and fully functional adult? Yes, I’d agree, as long as we aren’t discounting the benefit of having parents of both genders. Not everything has to be equal all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/39 "2009-05-02T18:29:35Z")
My parents split when I was about three years old, and after that my father was never in my life at all. My grandfather passed away when I was about five. Basically, I never had a male role model in my life. I wonder if the author would’ve recommended that I needed to be removed from my mother’s custody, and placed into a “real” family? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990/40 "2009-05-02T18:36:45Z")
If you really want to split hairs, Jesus wasn’t raised by his _father_. No matter how you look at it, his was _not_ a traditional family unit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-there-be-opposite-sex-role-models-for-children-of-gay-parents/494990.md?page=3)