# Should these students be allowed to graduate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784 "2002-04-26T15:05:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/21 "2002-04-26T20:00:27Z")
**eris** , actually, yes, school is one of the **rare** places where what you know doesn’t count, how you perform doesn’t count, but only ‘can you answer these questions in this setting in this amount of time’. I’m surprised that you think it is. A factory worker has production goals, but they aren’t sitting at a table marking boxes on a test form, they’re performing a task. An office worker may be sitting at a desk dealing with a whole stack of paperwork, but again, they aren’t looking at a booklet, being asked questions and having to mark boxes on another form. The basic ‘standardized testing format’ (booklet, piece of paper, multiple choice questions etc.) - the only times I’ve done them my entire life was at school, and a civil service exam. Not at actual job. YOu can make the claim that standardized testing gets them prepared for the civil service exam, but that’s not the claim made here. They’re claiming that failure on these standardized tests **means that the student didn’t learn to read, etc**. And, I’m not convinced that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/22 "2002-04-26T20:17:42Z")
**december** replied to **SMUsax** : \*"These achievement tests are not the sort of thing that are even difficult to pass, much less hard to pass. [_sic_ 😕] I had to take the TX version. If you can read English and add on your fingers (ok, maybe multiply too) then you can pass these things." Assuming that this description applies to the MCAS, we’re talking about 5,000 or so students per year, who will leave high school unable to read adequately or unable to do basic arithmetic. \* But does that description apply? I went to the MA Dept. of Education website and found some published [sample questions](http://www.doemass.org/mcas/2001/retest/) for what was described as the “Grade 10 MCAS Re-test”. The math questions include the following: > [@](#): > > A set of 36 cards is numbered with the positive integers from 1 to 36. If the cards are shuffled and one is chosen at random, what is the probability that the number on the card is a multiple of both 4 and 6? > > A movie projector positioned 28 feet from a wall creates an image that is 7 feet wide on the wall. If a screen is placed 5 feet in front of the projector, what will be the width of the image on the screen? > > The following table shows the total number of line segments that can be drawn connecting two points in a set of coplanar, noncollinear points. > [table omitted] > How many line segments can be drawn connecting two points in a set of 11 noncollinear points? The English Language Arts part of the sample test involves reading comprehension of excerpts from works including a _New Yorker_ article, Thomas Wolfe’s _Of Time and the River,_ Robert Frost’s “Acquainted with the Night”, and Shakespeare’s _Antony and Cleopatra._ The questions include the following: > [@](#): > > When Enobarbus says that even the air would have gone to see Cleopatra it is an example of A. onomatopoeia. B. simile. C. irony. D. personification. > > Which best describes the content of this article? A. persuasive B. autobiographical C. informational D. fictional > > Mark Twain said, “Make your vocation your vacation.” Explain how this quotation relates to this article. Use specific evidence from the article to support your answer. > > What is the basis for the organization of this excerpt? A. the sight of soaring mountain ranges B. the power of the huge train as it crosses mountains C. sounds that increase in loudness in time D. a fleeting scene that deeply affects the passenger in the train > > What do the switchman and his family represent for the passenger on the train? Support your answer with evidence from the excerpt. > > In line 12, luminary means A. solitary. B. towering. C. glowing. D. mysterious. > > With which of the following stanza patterns does the poem end? A. quatrain B. sestet C. octave D. couplet Doesn’t look as though we’re actually talking about mere “adequacy” in “reading and basic arithmetic” here. Now mind you, I think that most high school graduates **should** be able to answer such questions correctly, and I’m sure that all the Dopers here can do so off the tops of their heads. 😉 But I don’t think it’s fair to say that someone who can’t pass a test like this must not be able even to “read English and add on their fingers”. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/23 "2002-04-26T20:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Hold them back. Sorry, but the education system shouldn’t be putting kids out there without something resembling an education. And they really need to take some time to find out how something like this happened. I don’t understand the _rationale_ here. In 13 years of public education, they failed to learn how to read, so we should hold them back another year? Is the 14th year the _magical_ year? Is that what we’re all missing? Should each state just require an additional year for everybody’s education? These students who tested poorly are already lost…the PE system is never going to be able to save these students. However, if we start early enough, and people are serious about changing the system, not just paying lip-service to voters, things _can_ be changed, and people will graduate with an education. My last two years of HS I went to school in California. There were 2500 students in my school, 700 in my class. I believe that 1/2 of which were minorities. I only took Honors and AP courses…how many minority students do you think were in my class? 1. 1 black female. That was it. No latinos, and 1 black female. Am I suppose to believe that out of over 300 minority students only _one_ was smart enough to be in the Honors or AP courses? My sociology prof warned us that numbers don’t tell us what the problem is, only that there is a problem…the numbers mentioned in this thread indicate that there is a problem _with the public education system_ and not with a few “un-motivated” (lazy), “poor” (stupid), “urban” (black) kids. Over half of these students didn’t pass…I’m thinking it may not be their fault completely. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/24 "2002-04-26T20:33:08Z")
But **wring** , students have been taking timed tests all throughout their school career. Surely this one is no shock to them. If they got to their senior year by passing timed tests, they should be able to graduate by passing a timed test. Know what I mean? It isn’t like an MCAS is horribly unique to students. Finals, mid-terms, pop quizzes… none of this stuff is new. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/25 "2002-04-26T20:39:40Z")
**pepper** , I don’t see how giving them diplomas will help them _more_. Can you explain that to me? I agree that the problem is likely to be found in the system, though I am not sure where or how. I grew up in the lower-class suburbs of Cleveland. We had no significant minority population, unless you count people-who-have-mullets. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/26 "2002-04-26T20:44:51Z")
the question **eris** is “are these standardized tests sufficient in and of themselves to be the only requirement that matters” The issue, as described were students who’d passed their classes (presumabley by doing passing work) but did not pass these tests. And I’m suggesting that using that as the only meaningful standard is wrong. Yes, students take standardized, timed tests all the time. But they also are able to demonstrate their skill and mastery of the material in other ways. A term paper is not a timed test, neither is a class project, etc etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/27 "2002-04-26T20:50:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*Sua, these students have already been punished, by not getting a decent education. Without a decent education behind it, a diploma is nothing more than a piece of paper. > > Give them a diploma and they will be unprepared for jobs that require a high school education, and will fail when put in those positions. Pretending that they have a high school education doesn’t really help anyone. At least, if they are denied that diploma, these students may have a reason to go for a GED. \*\* Horsehockey. A diploma is an incredibly valuable piece of paper, without regard to whether or not the holder had a “decent education.” Take me, for example. Prior to law school, I had several jobs that required a college degree. It didn’t matter that (a) my college diploma was essentially worthless - I consciously benefited from grade inflation (graduated with a 3.3 - in the bottom half of my class) or (b) that my majors, earned or not, had nothing to do with the jobs I got. Just about any job you can get with a high school education won’t require you to know what year the War of 1812 started. I have two possible alternatives here: 1. If a kid does what is required to get a diploma (that is, pass the required classes), give the kid a diploma. Use the MCAS to figure out which teachers and principals are committing fraud on the taxpayers by claiming to give these kids a decent education by passing them when they haven’t learned the material, and fire their asses. 2. Go with **Sphinx’s** suggestion, but with one twist - drop grades in subjects. There shouldn’t be two different standards of “passing” - subject grades and the MCAS. Have a standardized final exam at the end of each year. Sua ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/28 "2002-04-26T21:15:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*Gosh I really hate to do this, but the inner a hole in me must, “What’s the value of a dipploma without the learning?”. > > A prize goes to the first person who points out what’s wrong here. \*\* “Diploma” should only have one p? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/29 "2002-04-26T21:31:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\ ***pepper** , I don’t see how giving them diplomas will help them _more_. Can you explain that to me? > \*\* Because there are very few jobs that are open to people without a diploma, and those that are rarely pay anything approaching a living wage. Many jobs that require a diploma can be performed perfectly well by people who don’t know a similie from a personification. The temp agency I work for won’t take anyone who isn’t a high school graduate, and they’ve found me plenty of jobs that could have been performed just as well by a child or trained chimpanzee. You may argue that these kids don’t _deserve_ a diploma unless they can answer the kinds of questions in **Kimstu** ’s post, but I don’t see how there can be any doubt that they would be _better off_ with a diploma than without whether they can answer the questions or not. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/30 "2002-04-26T21:33:20Z")
> [@](#): > > pepper, I don’t see how giving them diplomas will help them more. Can you explain that to me? Well, with seniors who do not pass the tests (which the more I think about it, really doesn’t measure if these people can read or write) you have two options: refuse to give them a diploma and keep them for a year, or send them out in the world to fend for themselves. Neither option is exactly desirable. So which is the lesser of the two evils? Option 1: If you keep them in school, what will it accomplish? It will inflate classroom numbers…many of which are already too full. It will create a heavier load for already over-worked teachers. Do you set up a special program for '13th year" students? What happens if they don’t pass again? Do you just kick them out of school without diploma eventually? Option 2: Give them their diploma and send them out. I daresay that there are very intelligent people who do know how to read and count, and can easily learn skills in the job market whether they did well in HS or not. They can use their diplomas to get jobs and maybe attend a JC. The people who who don’t get jobs or seek higher education are going to be that way whether they “walk” or not. They can’t be caught in school forever. By the time people graduate, many of them are adults. So, I think they should be released from the hell that is the Public Education system, because it’s certainly not doing them any favors. I personally think that grades, diplomas, and scores don’t measure anything accurately. Some of the smartest people I have ever met barely graduated high school. ---
**Author:** ![Arken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@Arken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arken)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/31 "2002-04-26T21:48:26Z")
I think the entire problem with the education system in the U.S. is that it is totally focused on academics. Many other countries (and this country as well at one point in time) puts everyone in the same school for the first few years, then lets them opt either for the academic tract and the trade school tract. While there are a few vocational schools here and there in this country, they are few and far between and they are generally underfunded and looked down upon. The same goes with college. Why there are college degrees for things such as being a librarian, an actor or a computer programmer are beyond me. Such things should be apprentice positions which would both take the pressure off the students and give veterans in the field a better chance to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. All of these kids who couldn’t pass the test would have been out of the academic system years before and on to learning a trade which they would probably be valuable and needed in… they would also probably be less likely to turn to crime to get ahead in the world. Anyway, that’s my $0.02 on the whole issue. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/32 "2002-04-26T21:51:49Z")
Part of the problem, I think, is the “one-size-fits-all” nature of a standardized test. Now I personally love overeducation and useless erudition—why else would I spend so much time on these boards? ;)—and I do believe that education ought to be about not just practical job skills, but also the development of well-rounded individuals familiar with important ideas in literature and art and science. Even so, I’m not convinced that **every** 18-year-old in the nation needs to be able to enumerate the possible line segments connecting members of a set of noncollinear points or know the difference between a quatrain and a sestet. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/33 "2002-04-26T21:53:04Z")
Sua, let’s say you are a manager of a business, and need to hire workers. You need workers with some education, so you require a high school diploma for all applicants. When 50% of the minorities you hire do not have the skills you need, what are you to think? These kids with phony diplomas will be placed into jobs that they do not have the skills for. Are we really helping them by putting them in jobs they don’t have the skills to do? Perhaps, those that hack it will be better off, but it troubles me that we think so lightly of watering down the value of a diploma. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/34 "2002-04-26T22:05:17Z")
well **CHeessteak** you’re making a bunch of assumptions there, aren’t you? that x% of those w/o the necessary job skills were h/s grads, x% were minorities, that those necessary job skills were available to be taught at the school etc. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/35 "2002-04-26T22:35:11Z")
Yeah, I’ve got lots of unsupported assumptions here… I don’t know for sure that all of these kids (who didn’t pass the test) would fail in the workforce, but I think it’s very reasonable to think they will have more trouble, on average, than their peers who passed. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/36 "2002-04-26T22:40:02Z")
and I’d have to ask you to support that contention. From my discussions w/employers (I work in a placement program), and from the meetings I"ve attended w/WOrkforce Development Officials, the skills that employers are specifically looking for aren’t the ones being tested for on the test mentioned in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![lenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3bc359/32.png) [@lenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lenin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/37 "2002-04-26T23:12:14Z")
As a MA resident, I’d like to point something out that’s been missed. The test they have to pass is taken in the 10th grade. Several portions are untimed. If they do not pass, they can take it over as many times as possible until they succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/38 "2002-04-26T23:17:03Z")
The question is, how much education and what kind of education do you need in order to make a living and have a fulfilling life, and what’s the basic minimum that we ought to require of everybody? It used to be that “high” school really meant a **higher** level of education than average; at the beginning of the last century, only a very small percentage of Americans had completed high school. In 1950, only about half the population in their late 20’s had a high school diploma. In the early 1970’s that percentage was in the low eighties, and for the last fifteen years or so it’s been somewhere in the high eighties. ([source](http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/droppub_2001/11.asp?nav=2)) So expecting that everyone, or almost everyone, will finish high school is really quite a recent phenomenon in this country, and I’m not sure it’s the best way to go. Were the more than half the adult population that had no high school diplomas in 1950 “failing in the workforce”? Should we be demanding that level of education today as our absolute minimum for getting a reasonably decent job? If we do, I agree with those who have argued that we can’t send huge percentages of kids through school with passing grades and then refuse to award them the diploma on the basis of a qualifying exam. Looking again at the sample test questions I linked to, I’d say that people who can calculate probabilities, analyze graphs, do word problems on plane geometry, and recognize the meaning of words like “sestet”, “luminary”, and “onomatopoeia” have received an **excellent** basic academic education, not just a **minimal** one. I’m all for excellent academic education, but do we really want to make that our cutoff job qualification even for busboys, bouncers, and office temps? It seems to me that—without really thinking carefully about what we’re doing—we’re drastically raising the bar for the working class without providing the extra training required to meet the extra challenges. ---
**Author:** ![smilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@smilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilla)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2002, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/39 "2002-04-27T00:21:18Z")
Although this is a bit late, I also want to point out one of the big problems with these standardized tests: the fact that often, they don’t so much measure aptitude, achievement, or intelligence as they measure cultural knowledge or how much you’ve practiced for the test. For example, I would consider myself fairly intelligence. I received a 1400 on my SATs (like that indicates anything other than good test-taking skills), and I’m due to recieve my B.S. this May (yay!). Yet, when I took the free practice GRE I did much lower than my SAT scores predict (1230 Verbal and Math combined - I don’t even want to talk about the Logic section), and I was almost stumped by the questions Kimstu posted earlier. The last math class I had was Calculus, taken 2 years ago. While I did pretty good on the Verbal section of the practice GRE, my performance on the Math Section was abysmal. Why? Because for the past 3 years I haven’t had any exposure to the sorts of problems they ask in that section of the test (I’m a Psych./Anthro major). The point, which has been made by several others in this thread, is that the kids who fail aren’t stupid, but their schooling isn’t even close to the level of those students who pass the test. Without exposure to the material, you cannot be expected to pass any sort of test. The day when policy-makers realize this and start to make significant moves towards cleaning up the public school system will be a happy day indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2002, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784/40 "2002-04-27T01:39:55Z")
Having a diploma (the piece of paper) doesn’t make you a happier person, doesn’t make you smart, or wise, or thoughful, it is only of value in the job market. One never has to prove you graduated to friends or relatives (I hope), only to your employer. It allows you to compete for jobs that require a diploma, that’s about it. Once you’ve been through 12 years of school, you’ve gotten all of the education you’re going to get there. After this test you will have the same education either with or without the diploma. The diploma _should_ indicate that you have learned what you need to learn, and are qualified to compete for jobs that require it. If the test doesn’t relate to the skills employers need, then I would consider it nothing more than an academic exercise. As such, you shouldn’t prevent someone from getting the diploma because of it, since the diploma itself is only of interest to those employers anyway. If it is that detached from what kids need to know to make a living in the real world, why bother with it at all? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-these-students-be-allowed-to-graduate/105784.md?page=3)