# Should this be considered "murder"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796 "2003-09-25T18:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/21 "2003-09-26T02:03:19Z")
Is there the intent to kill? If the intent was merely to wound the victim, but ends up killing them instead, I’m quite certain it would just be manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Kalimero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aca169/32.png) [@Kalimero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalimero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/22 "2003-09-26T02:05:18Z")
IMHO (wrong forum, I know, but that’s what the OP asked for): It’s the intent that counts. If you try to kill him, and it was in hot blood, it’s manslaughter. If you try to kill him with premeditation, it’s murder. It shouldn’t matter at all whether the attempt has been successful, in one way or another, except maybe for the degree of penalty. ---
**Author:** ![doctordoowop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@doctordoowop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doctordoowop)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/23 "2003-09-26T02:21:10Z")
If he lives a year & a day-no murder-most jurisdictions. If you shoot a guy-minor wound, but he dies because of a medical error-malpractice= murder.(2nd degree) Having a medical & law degree I am intrigued that medical malpractice is “Foreseeable,” but legal malpractice is not. Guess because lawyers make the laws/cases. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/24 "2003-09-26T04:04:40Z")
The courts already ruled: In the OP scenario, the ‘do not resuscitate’ order didn’t kill him; you did, for putting him in that state in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Blue\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/25 "2003-09-26T04:33:25Z")
The DNR should play no part in it. Saying that your not responsible for his death since he had a DNR is like saying you would not be responsible because he didn’t have insurance for being shot. The minute you fired the weapon the result was decided. What other reason would you have to shot someone in this situation other than to kill them? Attempted murder if he lived, murder if he died. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/26 "2003-09-26T06:26:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Fifty years from now: > [ul][li]You put six bullets in somebody (or use your 2050s-style death-ray)[/li][li]Nanotech patches them right up.[/li][li]Do you get charged?[/ul][/li] > The intent in each case is exactly the same, but the punishments have changed. \*\* This reminds me of the legal system in John Varley’s ‘Steel Beach’ and other novels in the same future setting. Nanotechnology makes it very difficult to actually kill someone, and most people record their personalities and memories every several months so if you do get killed, you will be brought back (you just won’t remember anything that happened between the last time you were recorded and when you died). If you do manage to kill someone in this universe, you have to pay the victim 95% of your net worth for ‘Alienation of Identity’ or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/27 "2003-09-26T09:13:41Z")
Can we assume that: 1. You intended to kill him. 2. The heart attack was a direct result of the shooting. 3. The doctor could almost certainly have saved him (once he was at the hospital) had he been allowed to. I’m not sure. Here’s some comparable cases (intent to kill assumed in each): You push someone off a cliff. They have the opportunity to catch a branch on the way down, but choose not to. You push someone off a cliff. They hang from the edge. You offer to pull them back up and they refuse, eventually weakening and falling. You push someone off a cliff. They hang from the edge. Someone else comes along and doesn’t pull them up. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/28 "2003-09-26T10:37:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > \*\*Can we assume that: > > 1. You intended to kill him. > 2. The heart attack was a direct result of the shooting. > 3. The doctor could almost certainly have saved him (once he was at the hospital) had he been allowed to.\*\* As far as anything could be said to be a “direct result” or “almost certainly,” yes. Barry ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/29 "2003-09-26T21:28:44Z")
Reminds me of [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211042&perpage=50). ---
**Author:** ![Spiratu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@Spiratu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiratu)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/30 "2003-09-26T22:00:21Z")
What if you shoot someone who’s a member of a religious group that probits blood donations? Having a personal belief that “when my time comes, I’ll go naturally” is quite a bit different than believing that you want to kill yourself (i.e., suicide). That’s the difference between a DNR (or someone who won’t accept blood) and a “premeditated suicide,” as the OP calls it. ---
**Author:** ![vengence\_will\_be\_mine.maybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/58956e/32.png) [@vengence\_will\_be\_mine.maybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vengence_will_be_mine.maybe)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796/31 "2003-09-26T22:14:42Z")
If you shot someone because you were just arguing with him that is an extreme act in itself. If you were physically fighting and then you shot him it would be different. Fuck it, you should fry with all the rest . ``` Sorry ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-be-considered-murder/203796.md?page=1)