# Should this double-amputee be permitted to compete with "normal, natural-two-legged" sprinters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457 "2012-08-04T22:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/41 "2012-08-05T06:00:20Z")
Bicycles don’t have muscles in them either, and a track cyclist’s 400m standing start time trial is going to be over a lot faster than a 400m footrace. Okay, maybe not the best example as wheels are fundamentally different, but at least theoretically the prosthetics could be storing and releasing energy in such a way that running with them is vastly more efficient. Where an able-bodied runner needs to expend energy and rely on calf strength to push off with the toe, the prosthetic leg stores the energy of the foot striking the ground and then releases it. One could probably devise an elaborate boot using similar carbon fibre springs that could be worn by an able-bodied runner and would provide some level of advantage with the same energy store & release characteristics. Such boots would almost certainly be outlawed. As I said in my first post, I have no strong opinion on this. I’m not sure at all how accurate my previous paragraph is. There is however at least a coherent argument that can be made. Of course, the appropriate adjudicating body considered all these things and ruled in favour of Pistorius competing, which is good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/42 "2012-08-05T06:13:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The difference is that a motorcycle is designed to let you go fast without running. Pistorius’s prosthetics allow him to run, period. > > If he had roller skates attached to his legs that’d be something else. But, basically, he’s wearing really long shoes. I’m sure every sprinter out there is wearing $2000 shoes, but we don’t begrudge them that. For that matter, there is no rule against baseball players wearing contact lenses so they can see the ball, yet that is undoubtedly an artificial improvement to their physical capabilities. > > The prosthetics are neat and all, but they don’t have muscles in them, do they? He doesn’t even have feet. For all the advantage they might confer, I have difficulty believing they’re better than actual legs with working muscles; runners do generate power from the muscles in their lower legs and feet, and Pistorius gets none of that. His artificial legs are lighter, longer and more springy. If he gets an advantage because of technology, you might as well allow motor cycles. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/43 "2012-08-05T11:20:04Z")
He competes _differently_ from natural runners. That in and of itself should be enough to disqualify him from current olympic competition. The race is no longer being run by competitors with what (basically) nature and hard work gave them. Pistorius would be better served running a race that allowed PED’s or other overt augmentation. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/44 "2012-08-05T12:14:27Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > He competes _differently_ from natural runners. That in and of itself should be enough to disqualify him from current olympic competition. The race is no longer being run by competitors with what (basically) nature and hard work gave them. Pistorius would be better served running a race that allowed PED’s or other overt augmentation. Well, define “differently.” I mean, if a runner with limbs somehow blew the competition out of the water by running on all fours would that be wrong? I kind of get what you’re going for, but I’m not sure “differently” is descriptive enough to cover it. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/45 "2012-08-05T12:26:23Z")
He does have several advantages. First he does not have the added weight of legs. Secondly as he comes down the weight of his body loads the springs that will propel his next step. Muscles are not loading these springs, gravity is. He still has to supply enough energy to keep this motion going but mechanicaly it is designed to favor the act of running. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/46 "2012-08-05T12:32:03Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Well, define “differently.” I mean, if a runner with limbs somehow blew the competition out of the water by running on all fours would that be wrong? I’d say yes that would be wrong. The rules for the events are completely arbitrary to begin with. They set distances, the track, footwear allowed, time of day etc. If they want to set the rules to exclude double amputees or running on all fours I’m ok with that. Personally I’m all up for events that impose far less restrictions on the technology allowed. Want to drug up and use cybernetic enhancements to push the envelope, lets see what mankind can do. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/47 "2012-08-05T12:48:53Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Well, define “differently.” I mean, if a runner with limbs somehow blew the competition out of the water by running on all fours would that be wrong? Not to my mind, but the rules are arbitrary. Currently it seems the big deal is about ensuring that competitors are only using what nature gave them. Of course we can quibble about footwear and training regimens, but basically, they all are competing using the same set of muscles tendons and bones to generate their performance. In that regard, I’ve no issue with someone who wanted to compete on all fours. If it was that effective, then no doubt the style would be quickly adapted by others. That’s why PEDs are out, they are an unnatural chemical supplement that can confer an unfair advantage to the user. Their performance is _augmented_ if you don’t like the word different. In a competition where augmentation is allowed, we could design the rules differently to ensure fair play. Pistorious isn’t using the same set of “equipment” as the current crop of runners under olympic rules. I’d be happy to watch a second category where augmented performers push the limits. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/48 "2012-08-05T13:56:39Z")
The thing is, until Oscar Pistorius no one ever would have called a man using prosthetics instead of feet “augmented”. That’s quite a significant change. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/49 "2012-08-05T14:34:00Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Pistorious isn’t using the same set of “equipment” as the current crop of runners under olympic rules. I’d be happy to watch a second category where augmented performers push the limits. Like the Paralympics? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/50 "2012-08-05T14:40:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m sure every sprinter out there is wearing $2000 shoes, but we don’t begrudge them that. For that matter, there is no rule against baseball players wearing contact lenses so they can see the ball, yet that is undoubtedly an artificial improvement to their physical capabilities. 1.) Contact lenses are supposed to correct your vision to within the normal range. Eyes are a part of a much bigger package in basketball. We’re talking about a guy who has a documented _advantage_ with prosthetic legs in a sport where your legs are everything. 2.) Again, I refer you to the now-banned NASA technology [swimsuit](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/30/us-olympics-swimming-idUSTRE7AT32820111130) that helped Phelps win in Beijing. > [@](#): > > Waller said the suits had taken four years to develop but would improve oxygen economy by 11 percent and reduce drag by 16.6 percent underwater and 5.2 percent on the surface. > > “In a sport where gold medals are decided by hundredths of a second, that’s a huge advantage,” said Phelps’s coach Bob Bowman, who helped develop the suits. People were not happy. But it didn’t keep Speedo from [going back to the drawing board](http://www.npr.org/2012/08/04/157826410/thats-no-swimsuit-thats-a-racing-system). > [@](#): > > In 2008, Speedo got too good at making swimsuits. > > Ninety-eight percent of medal winners that year wore the company’s LZR Racer, a zip-sealed full-body suit that carried many top athletes — including Michael Phelps — to gold. > > But after those games, the sport’s international governing body changed the rules to outlaw the LZR by banning zippers and restricting mens’ suit coverage from the navel to the knees. So Speedo went back to the drawing board and spent years developing what’s now known as the Fastskin3 system. People DO care about what’s in the equipment. > [@](#): > > Speedo built a system it says can reduce drag on a swimmer by as much as 16 percent. > > “What we’re confident in is that this Fastskin3 system is the fastest system available,” Santry says. > > To build the suit system, researchers scanned athletes’ heads, using 3-D imaging to measure their exact eye-socket dimensions for custom-calibrated goggles. They developed a two-cap system to better streamline drag on the head. And they created a new fabric Santry says only Speedo has access to — one that actually compresses a swimmer’s body three times that of the old full-body LZR suits. Michael Phelps wears CUSTOM CALIBRATED GOGGLES, for fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/51 "2012-08-05T14:49:29Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Like the Paralympics? Apparently he isn’t allowed in anymore because he is too good. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/52 "2012-08-05T14:58:47Z")
The page here claims the cheetah prosthetic has not changed significantly since 1997. > **[Össur. Life Without Limitations.](https://www.ossur.com/region-selector)** > > A Global leader in orthopaedics, Össur employs the smartest minds and the most advanced technologies to help keep people mobile. If that’s true and it really gave the runner an advantage over real feet then shouldn’t we have expected to see a prosthetic gold medallist long some time ago? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/53 "2012-08-05T15:07:00Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > The page here claims the cheetah prosthetic has not changed significantly since 1997. > [Össur. Life Without Limitations.](http://www.ossur.com/?PageID=13462) > > If that’s true and it really gave the runner an advantage over real feet then shouldn’t we have expected to see a prosthetic gold medallist long some time ago? When you consider how few runners have the genetics to perform at that level and how few double amputees there are, the overlap between the two groups would be very small. Then those few would actually have to get involved in athletics and discover their potential. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/54 "2012-08-05T15:09:31Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > The page here claims the cheetah prosthetic has not changed significantly since 1997. > [Össur. Life Without Limitations.](http://www.ossur.com/?PageID=13462) > > If that’s true and it really gave the runner an advantage over real feet then shouldn’t we have expected to see a prosthetic gold medallist long some time ago? Well, I’d suggest that “significant updates” could be in the eye of the beholder. That said, assume that they are exactly the same. The amount of use has gone up with time. In 1997 far fewer people would use them as to now, because more people have seen them now. As for why someone hasn’t been able to compete in the Olympics until now, I’d suggest that if one in a million people is capable of being an Olympian and one in a thousand people lose both legs, you’re not going to see someone even close in ability every day. It might just be that the overlap of professional quality runner, double amputee and having springy cheetah legs hasn’t come around until now. Edit: In other words, what Runner Pat said way better [shakes fist]. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/55 "2012-08-05T15:09:35Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > The page here claims the cheetah prosthetic has not changed significantly since 1997. > [Össur. Life Without Limitations.](http://www.ossur.com/?PageID=13462) > > If that’s true and it really gave the runner an advantage over real feet then shouldn’t we have expected to see a prosthetic gold medallist long some time ago? Having just one would give you a disadvantage. But two is different. Here’s an [old link](“The Cheetah may be more advantageous than the human foot,” Phillips said. “Carbon graphite may be more energy efficient.” But he said he believed Pistorius should be allowed to compete.) to an NY Times article. > [@](#): > > In January, track and field’s world governing body ruled that Pistorius’s prosthetics gave him an unfair advantage and that he was ineligible to participate in able-bodied competitions. Pistorius appealed, and the Court of Arbitration for Sport reversed the decision, saying the governing body’s examination of Pistorius was flawed. He is a long shot to reach a qualifying time for Beijing; he says the 2012 London Games are a more realistic goal. > > “The Cheetah may be more advantageous than the human foot,” Phillips said. “Carbon graphite may be more energy efficient.” But he said he believed Pistorius should be allowed to compete. It doesn’t make sense that the Cheetah hasn’t changed much since 1997. That’s not what technology is about. edit: also from their website: > [@](#): > > The design captures the running characteristics of the Cheetah, the world’s fastest land animal. It replicates the big cat’s hind leg, whose foot extends and reaches out to paw at the ground while the large thigh muscles pull the body forward. Did you read the Sports Illustrated article linked upthread? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/56 "2012-08-05T16:58:03Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > 1.) Contact lenses are supposed to correct your vision to within the normal range. Eyes are a part of a much bigger package in basketball. We’re talking about a guy who has a documented _advantage_ with prosthetic legs in a sport where your legs are everything. I wasn’t aware that this “advantage” had been proven to exist unequivocally. And if it’s so great, why don’t we see able-bodied runners lopping off their feet so they can use Cheetahs? And if it’s so great, why doesn’t Pistorius win _every_ race he enters? (He doesn’t, by the way) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/57 "2012-08-05T19:14:45Z")
It doesn’t matter whether it is an advantage, or how much of one. He’s not “running” in the same sense as anyone else there. Running _means_ self-propulsion through the use of a system of hips and legs and knees and ankles and feet. You might as well strap his stumps to bicycle pedals as let him use these springs. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/58 "2012-08-05T19:35:07Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Apparently he isn’t allowed in anymore because he is too good. Easy solution. Take one prothetic away. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/59 "2012-08-06T01:16:32Z")
I have the solution that should satisfy you all. Let him compete – but without the prosthetics. Winning on stumps should delight everyone. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/60 "2012-08-06T01:56:47Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > 2.) Again, I refer you to the now-banned NASA technology [swimsuit](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/30/us-olympics-swimming-idUSTRE7AT32820111130) that helped Phelps win in Beijing. > > People were not happy. But it didn’t keep Speedo from [going back to the drawing board](http://www.npr.org/2012/08/04/157826410/thats-no-swimsuit-thats-a-racing-system). > > . Frankly, the obvious solution would be to have swimmers compete in the nude. And yes, I’m completely serious even though I know that most people’s prudishness will prevent that. Same with racers competing barefooted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457.md?page=4)