# Should this double-amputee be permitted to compete with "normal, natural-two-legged" sprinters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457 "2012-08-04T22:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/61 "2012-08-06T02:28:34Z")
Anyway, he was eliminated in the semifinals. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/62 "2012-08-06T02:57:01Z")
No. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/63 "2012-08-06T03:35:48Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > When you consider how few runners have the genetics to perform at that level and how few double amputees there are, the overlap between the two groups would be very small. Then those few would actually have to get involved in athletics and discover their potential. Thing is, if you boil that argument down, what you get is “if one hundred thousand other amputees tried to compete at his level, they’d utterly fail. So it’s not the tools he’s using. It’s him.” I agree, it’s not exactly that simple. But when you put into the argument that this is such a rare and special case and it’s only happening because of who he is, wouldn’t the problem answer itself? It’s a rare and special case. And it’s happening because of him. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/64 "2012-08-06T03:49:48Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Thing is, if you boil that argument down, what you get is “if one hundred thousand other amputees tried to compete at his level, they’d utterly fail. So it’s not the tools he’s using. It’s him.” > > I agree, it’s not exactly that simple. But when you put into the argument that this is such a rare and special case and it’s only happening because of who he is, wouldn’t the problem answer itself? It’s a rare and special case. And it’s happening because of him. But the sample size is too small(one). How do we know if he was only a 49 sec 400 runner and the blades are making him a 45 runner? The other thing is even if today’s blades don’t give him an advantage doesn’t mean that future versions won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/65 "2012-08-06T04:11:41Z")
Also - I find it hard to believe that the Paralympics would kick him out. He meets their qualifications! I think other racers were just complaining. There have been people who competed in both. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/66 "2012-08-06T04:28:01Z")
I don’t have a problem with it. He’s a world-class athlete, and belongs on a world class stage. I don’t really harbor many illusions that Olympics are that objective to begin with. It’s more of an entertaining spectacle (which he contributes plenty to) and a personal journey for some very good athletes (which he also has going fof him). I don’t really buy into the whole “human peak performance” hype. There are plenty of things about every Olympic competition that are fairly arbitrary. If you want to test the limits of the human body, you probably need to go to a controlled lab and run twitch tests on people or something. A sports competition, on the other hand, has some room to incorporate the variety of human experiences that lead people to be at the peak of their sport. In the end, if people don’t want to race against him, they are free to join leagues that don’t allow prothesis. But from what I can tell, other runners seem inspired by him, rather than resentful. And that’s how it should be, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/67 "2012-08-06T05:04:55Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I wasn’t aware that this “advantage” had been proven to exist unequivocally. > > And if it’s so great, why don’t we see able-bodied runners lopping off their feet so they can use Cheetahs? That’s a stupid argument. Able-bodied runners don’t lop off their feet _because that would require lopping off their feet_. Believe it or not, people have an aversion to cutting off their own limbs. It took Aron Ralston six days to decide to do it and he was facing certain death, not the possibility of slightly slower race times. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/68 "2012-08-06T05:46:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There are plenty of things about every Olympic competition that are fairly arbitrary. Of course they’re arbitrary. All competitive sports are entirely arbitrary. The arbitrary terms of competition are what distinguish organized contests from exercise, or the playground. The problem with allowing these contraptions is that it makes the terms of competition relative to the individual–_less_ arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/69 "2012-08-06T08:05:47Z")
I don’t understand his participation on any level at all apart from the IOC wanting an ‘inclusive’ headline. He doesn’t suffer lactic acid in his lower legs, he has no lower leg muscles to get tired - of which there are several, he has no knee joint problems, no foot or toe injuries, no lower locomotion issues: how is the responsive nature of his blades measured, etc, etc … Sure, he has a diff set of problems but that’s exactly the point. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/70 "2012-08-06T08:15:02Z")
I didn’t realize that hoe was competing in the Paralympics as well this year. That seems a little like having your cake and eating it. No, I don’t think he should have been allowed to run in the Olympics. For a start artificial extensions are not subject to pulled muscles, ripped tendons, etc. There’s an advantage right there. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/71 "2012-08-06T12:09:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That’s a stupid argument. Able-bodied runners don’t lop off their feet _because that would require lopping off their feet_. Believe it or not, people have an aversion to cutting off their own limbs. It took Aron Ralston six days to decide to do it and he was facing certain death, not the possibility of slightly slower race times. There are people so driven to win they’ll trash their bodies with drugs and run until they cause permanent injury. If it was a guarantee to win I am certain you’d find people willing to make that sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/72 "2012-08-06T12:13:06Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > I don’t understand his participation on any level at all apart from the IOC wanting an ‘inclusive’ headline. > > He doesn’t suffer lactic acid in his lower legs, he has no lower leg muscles to get tired - of which there are several, he has no knee joint problems, no foot or toe injuries, no lower locomotion issues: how is the responsive nature of his blades measured, etc, etc … He very much DOES have knees, ordinary organic knees. His original legs are gone only from the mid-calf down. No foot, toe, or ankle injuries (well, I suppose the prosthesis could crack or break, but that’s not what you meant, obviously) He might well have more balance issues. I’m also assuming he’s not immune to pressure wounds and abrasions on his stumps common to prosthesis users. It would help the discussion if you were a bit more knowledgeable on what this man is running on and with. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/73 "2012-08-06T12:16:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > He very much DOES have knees, ordinary organic knees. Ok, cheers. I thought the images suggested otherwise but you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/74 "2012-08-06T13:12:43Z")
That’s because in order for the prosthesis to stay on it has to go pretty far up what’s left of the leg. That’s one of the drawbacks of being an amputee runner, though - during the race your leg(s) might fall off. I’ve heard of people going to pieces under the stress of competition but that’s just ridiculous… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/75 "2012-08-06T13:17:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Anyway, he was eliminated in the semifinals. Defeated, was he? ---
**Author:** ![spanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@spanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spanna)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/76 "2012-08-06T13:20:41Z")
😃 you sir, are a bad, bad man ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/77 "2012-08-06T14:30:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are people so driven to win they’ll trash their bodies with drugs and run until they cause permanent injury. If it was a guarantee to win I am certain you’d find people willing to make that sacrifice. Definitely. Some people already do it without having Olympic aspirations: [http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/4671/](http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/4671/) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/78 "2012-08-06T14:55:25Z")
There’s something very depressing about this argument. I’m not one to go on about the Olympic spirit because I think the whole enterprise is so corrupt, but I do think that when a double amputee becomes one of the world’s best sprinters in spite of an enormous handicap and a lot of people complain he either has an unfair advantage or that what he does somehow doesn’t qualify as running, they’ve kind of missed the point. It also seems to me that this issue probably started with Olympians who were scared they might lose to a cripple or Olympic committees who were worried about the same, and I don’t think people like that should have their way. I was very happy to hear Pistorius was able to compete this year and even moreso that he qualified for the semifinals. The idea that he’s getting some kind of unfair advantage is absurd. His blades are ultimately less efficient than actual feet, and while his physical running motion is a bit different, he also has to start from a less effective sprinting position. So if not having lower legs was not enough of an advantage, he has to deal with that. But I’ll meet everybody halfway and say that he shouldn’t be allowed to compete with wheels and he definitely shouldn’t be allowed to strap a rocket to his back. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/79 "2012-08-06T15:01:14Z")
> [@](#): > > In November 2007, Pistorius was invited to take part in a series of scientific tests at the Cologne Sports University under the guidance of Professor of Biomechanics Dr Peter Brüggemann in conjunction with Mr Elio Locatelli, who was responsible with the IAAF of all technical issues. After two days of tests Brüggemann reported on his findings on behalf of the IAAF. The report claimed that Pistorius’s limbs used 25% less energy than runners with complete natural legs to run at the same speed, and that they led to less vertical motion combined with 30% less mechanical work for lifting the body.[32] In December, Brüggemann told Die Welt newspaper that Pistorius “has considerable advantages over athletes without prosthetic limbs who were tested by us. It was more than just a few percentage points. I did not expect it to be so clear.”[33] Based on these findings, on 14 January 2008 the IAAF ruled Pistorius’s prostheses ineligible for use in competitions conducted under the IAAF rules, including the 2008 Summer Olympics.[34] Pistorius called the decision “premature and highly subjective” and pledged to continue fighting for his dream. His manager Peet van Zyl said his appeal would be based on advice from United States experts who had said that the report “did not take enough variables into consideration”.[35] > > Pistorius subsequently appealed against the adverse decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Lausanne, Switzerland, and appeared before the tribunal at the end of April 2008.[36] After a two-day hearing, on 16 May 2008 the Court of Arbitration for Sport upheld Pistorius’s appeal and the IAAF council decision was revoked with immediate effect. The CAS panel unanimously determined that Dr. Brüggemann only tested Pistorius’s biomechanics at full-speed when he was running in a straight line (unlike a real 400-metre race), that the report did not consider the disadvantages that Pistorius suffers at the start and acceleration phases of the race, and that overall there was no evidence that he had any net advantage over able-bodied athletes. So, what happenes going around a bend remains unknown. > **[Oscar Pistorius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius)** > > 2008 Summer Paralympics: 100 m (T44) – Gold, 200 m (T44) – Gold; 400 m (T44) – Gold > 200 m: 1st (2008) > 200 m (T44): 21.30 s (2012, WR) ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/80 "2012-08-06T16:06:18Z")
The winner of the semi-final heat where Pistorius was eliminated swapped name bibs with him right after the race, and talked about how racing against him was ‘an honor’. _That’s_ Olympic spirit, and anyone still saying he shouldn’t have been allowed to race should be ashamed of yourself. When a double-amputee starts posting medal-winning times in races because of advances in prosthesis devices…well, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Personally I think that would be a truly wonderful debate to have to face. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457.md?page=5)