# Should this double-amputee be permitted to compete with "normal, natural-two-legged" sprinters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457 "2012-08-04T22:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/141 "2012-08-07T21:03:08Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And everyone would have the same track shoes, training facilities, nutrition, and coaches. > > But the tests show that the Cheetah blades don’t confer any mechanical advantage over flesh and blood legs, which is why no one is complaining. Some tests show that. He pumps his legs faster. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/142 "2012-08-07T21:03:42Z")
Whatever your interpretation of Pistorius may be, it is indisputably the case that, had he not existed, one additional runner with feet would be in the Olympic field. _That_ guy, whoever he is, lost his shot because of the favoritism shown to Pistorius and his “story.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/143 "2012-08-07T21:04:51Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, it’s been pointed out Usain Bolt is significantly taller than his competitors and with a longer stride. It takes him only 41 steps to run the 100 meter dash instead of the usual 44. Obviously we need to have separate running divisions based on height! > > :rolleyes: > > Maybe we should put all of Bolt’s competitors on stilts so they’ll have the same stride he does. > > :rolleyes: Bolt’s height is inherent to his body. Is the Olympics a test of human ability or engineering prowess? I don’t mind the idea of cyborg games, but dude isn’t competing against like. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/144 "2012-08-07T21:08:11Z")
If we can engineer a prosthesis we can engineer it to give no extra advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/145 "2012-08-07T21:13:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If we can engineer a prosthesis we can engineer it to give no extra advantage. That’s nonsense. You just said Bolt’s height is an advantage. Okay, so how long should we make an amputee’s legs? Bolt’s stride length? Shorter? As long as the original man’s shins would have been? What if he’s born without legs? Do we guess the length of his shins? Round up? The very fact that he doesn’t run as an undamaged human does, that he is forced by the replacements to take an unnatural gait means that he isn’t “the same.” Now if we had cyberlegs with servos and the weight, strength and size were perfectly analogous to the human versions, maybe you’d have a point (although he’d still have an unfair advantage in leg durability and not having to waste blood on them). But he’s hopping on carbon fiber springs, not running. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/146 "2012-08-07T21:17:07Z")
No _extra_ advantage? What does that even mean? Pistorius’ machines sure as hell give him an enormous advantage over his unadorned body, and over the gear available to everybody else on the field. How is that not cheating? ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/147 "2012-08-07T21:27:35Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Or, because they recognize this for what it really is: a very good runner **being brought** close to a level playing field from his disability. And they seem to support and applaud his inclusion. And there is the crux of the matter. He could not reach the level on his own, he needed to be brought to it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/148 "2012-08-07T21:29:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You can’t be serious? Posters have compared Pistorius’ blades to pogo sticks and speculated that other countries could lop off the legs of their athletes to duplicate Pistorius’ “advantage,” and you’re asking if _I’m_ serious? For the record, yes, I am- by way of analogy. > [@](#): > > And it’s not a given that they aren’t any more efficient than human legs. No, that’s just what the data says. > [@](#): > > As I linked to above, experts are split as to advantage Their credibility is not split. 😉 > [@](#): > > factually he is able to swing his legs faster than anyone else. So if I swung my legs really fast, I could outrun Usain Bolt? There’s nothing involved in running except swinging your legs? I think not. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Whatever your interpretation of Pistorius may be, it is indisputably the case that, had he not existed, one additional runner with feet would be in the Olympic field. _That_ guy, whoever he is, lost his shot because of the favoritism shown to Pistorius and his “story.” That’s a decision made by the relevant Olympic committees, not an inherent advantage created by the Cheetah blades. And none of those athletes were screwed the way the IOC screwed Pistorius before Beijing. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Pistorius’ machines sure as hell give him an enormous advantage over his unadorned body That’s not the relevant comparison, but it does reinforce that impression I get that some people think the “fair” thing is to make Pistorius drag his body along the track behind all the sprinters. That’ll show him. > [@](#): > > over the gear available to everybody else on the field. By “gear,” of course, you mean biological legs and feet, and the evidence says the prosthetics don’t give him an advantage compared to those. You suggested he didn’t deserve to be in the Olympics. How can he have an unfair advantage and be underqualified at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/149 "2012-08-07T21:30:26Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No _extra_ advantage? What does that even mean? Pistorius’ machines sure as hell give him an enormous advantage over his unadorned body, and **over the gear available to everybody else on the field. How is that not cheating**? Easily falsified by the results of the races. Nonissue. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/150 "2012-08-07T21:36:17Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Easily falsified by the results of the races. Nonissue. You aren’t evaluating this properly. You’re assuming he would otherwise be Olympic in ability. He just might be pretty good. If he had natural legs he might not have made the cut for the Olympics. The springs could be pushing him to way beyond the level of ability his undamaged body and training would give him. They may just be pushing a _really-good athlete_ up to _Olympic_ level. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/151 "2012-08-07T21:38:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You aren’t evaluating this properly. > > You’re assuming he would otherwise be Olympic in ability. He just might be pretty good. If he had natural legs he might not have made the cut for the Olympics. The springs could be pushing him to way beyond the level of ability his undamaged body and training would give him. They may just be pushing a _really-good athlete_ up to _Olympic_ level. You’re overanalyzing by about 400 meters. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/152 "2012-08-07T21:41:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Their credibility is not split. 😉 What? The primary guy vouching for him is also a double amputee. Don’t you think that makes him suspect in his conclusion? Also, as I posted above: > [@](#): > > SI spoke with eight independent physiologists and biomechanics experts who had no involvement with testing Pistorius, and all eight agreed that Pistorius has abnormally low leg-swing times, stemming from the lightness of his prostheses. Four felt that Pistorius has an advantage over his competitors, while four said that the low swing time is an advantage but that there may be other potential disadvantages to the prostheses that must be studied in more detail before they could say if Pistorius should be allowed to race against intact runners. “It’s innocent until proven guilty,” Herr says. > In London, the world is seeing a sprinter doing things that no one has done before, in terms of both his leg-swing times and his personal perseverance. > [@](#): > > So if I swung my legs really fast, I could outrun Usain Bolt? There’s nothing involved in running except swinging your legs? I think not. Of course not. But he doesn’t do anything like normal running. The fact that he pumps his legs way faster shows that he isn’t running, so he doesn’t belong in running competitions. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/153 "2012-08-07T21:42:52Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > You’re overanalyzing by about 400 meters. Well, I’m still winning, so it’s all good. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/154 "2012-08-07T21:44:39Z")
He did not take the place of another qualified runner. [From Wiki.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius) > [@](#): > > With his 400 metres time of 45.07 seconds on 19 July 2011, he achieved the “A” qualifying standard for the 2011 World Championships and 2012 Summer Olympics. From everything I’ve read, it’s not clear if he has an advantage or not. The only question, which cannot be answered, is if he had the natural ability to have qualified if he was able bodied. It’s possible that with the increasing number of potential athlete double amputees(military), there may possibly be an answer someday. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/155 "2012-08-07T22:00:02Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The primary guy vouching for him is also a double amputee. Don’t you think that makes him suspect in his conclusion? No, I think that might make him more knowledgeable, and in any event he was offering facts and not just an opinion. First the guy with no legs had an unfair advantage, now they’re conspiring together. > [@](#): > > The fact that he pumps his legs way faster shows that he isn’t running, so he doesn’t belong in running competitions. I think this is a ludicrous quibble, but I also think it’s a better argument than the claim that he has an unfair advantage. (I admit I took this position for a while in an earlier thread about Pistorius.) And it’s still a ludicrous quibble. What would you call it if not running? I don’t know if there are Olympic rules that define running, but Pistorius’ motion obviously falls within whatever guidelines they have. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/156 "2012-08-07T22:18:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, I think that might make him more knowledgeable, and in any event he was offering facts and not just an opinion. First the guy with no legs had an unfair advantage, now they’re conspiring together. > I think this is a ludicrous quibble, but I also think it’s a better argument than the claim that he has an unfair advantage. (I admit I took this position for a while in an earlier thread about Pistorius.) And it’s still a ludicrous quibble. What would you call it if not running? I don’t know if there are Olympic rules that define running, but Pistorius’ motion obviously falls within whatever guidelines they have. Well, whatever their rules say, is what they say, and certainly they can let whoever they want in. I’m just arguing for what I view as just. I would say he isn’t running because he isn’t going through the motions that normally typify running. In any case, as my link showed, experts are spit, and the primary voice for him is another double amputee who is a climber. So he obviously has a mental desire to prove that disabled people are capable. And they both are certainly capable, but I don’t think the cheetah legs allow you to compete meaningfully against unmodified humans. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/157 "2012-08-07T22:19:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The primary guy vouching for him is also a double amputee. Don’t you think that makes him suspect in his conclusion? Anecdotal, for sure, but I know Hugh personally and I would be willing to stake an awful lot on his ability to be scientifically impartial in this matter. He’s not just a double amputee; he’s one of the foremost researchers in prosthetic limbs in the world, and an athlete himself. He has designed limbs that give an advantage; these aren’t them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/158 "2012-08-07T22:37:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I would say he isn’t running because he isn’t going through the motions that normally typify running. Yes, he can’t use that typical motion because his lower legs were amputated. What he does is easily similar enough to running that I’m comfortable calling it running. > [@](#): > > the primary voice for him is another double amputee who is a climber. So he obviously has a mental desire to prove that disabled people are capable. No shit. The question is whether Herr’s data and conclusions are reliable, not how he feels about amputee athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/159 "2012-08-07T22:41:35Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Anecdotal, for sure, but I know Hugh personally and I would be willing to stake an awful lot on his ability to be scientifically impartial in this matter. He’s not just a double amputee; he’s one of the foremost researchers in prosthetic limbs in the world, and an athlete himself. He has designed limbs that give an advantage; these aren’t them. I certainly don’t think he’s crooked or anything. But it seems like the idea of advantage is largely a judgement call. In the link I attached the experts were split four to four. I guess my objection is based on the fact that there are so few double amputees that it is fantastically unlikely he’s truly Olympic caliber. And it would be fantastically unlikely to develop limbs that happen to be exactly the same as legs (especially considering the different movements necessary). If they are a 1% improvement over what his unmodified body would have done, they are too much. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457/160 "2012-08-07T22:42:17Z")
Marley, by “gear” I meant shoes. The equipment added to the competitors’ bodies. If Pistorius’ machines aren’t problematic now, why did you and others suggest they might become so _based on results_? Either he’s competing fairly and deserves to win the gold medal if he can–indeed, spring-loaded “runners” deserve to take every medal if they can–or else he shouldn’t be there at all. As for qualification, I see now that SA’s NOC didn’t send a full complement for 400m (my point stands as a matter of theory). But he did take a spot on the relay that would have gone to someone else, if onlu as a reserve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-double-amputee-be-permitted-to-compete-with-normal-natural-two-legged-sprinters/630457.md?page=9)