Should this double-amputee be permitted to compete with "normal, natural-two-legged" sprinters?

Great Debates
121

No, his legs are beautifully elegant and simple mechanical solutions. But they are not the legs his competitors are running on. He is not racing the same race.

Does the spring in the design plus the lower weight perfectly equal the loss of lower leg power plus the added balance problem? How could we know? We have a population of one in the test sample.

He deserves the credit; he is an inspiration to everyone, not just amputees or others who are “challenged”; but he is not racing the same race.

And I can’t be sorry he doesn’t have a large enough population of peers to compete against.

122

It’s a game- a game that we make up the rules for. It exists only for us- for our enjoyment, our aspirations, and our communities. The gods are not going to rain down wrath on us for being a bit creative with things. We can do whatever we want with this.

So what are the disadvantages, really? The runners don’t seem very upset about things. I’ve certainly never see a runner upset enough to refuse to race him. The actual competitors in the race- who presumably have a pretty big stake- seem pretty honored to be running with him. Sure, winning is nice. But most athletes have learned some sportsmanship as well, and sportsmanship means that there are some things are bigger than your own aspirations. Every athlete endeavors to do their best, but if you are beat by a legless guy, I think you probably throw up your hands and say “Damn, I just got beat by a guy with no legs.” I imagine most runners just respect the guy.

So where are the disadvantages? We are somehow besmirching cosmic “fairness” by being somewhat arbitrary with our arbitrary game that we made up for our own enjoyment?

The advantages, though, are huge. To begin with, this guy has nobody else to race with. Nobody outside of the top tier of runners is anywhere near in his league. Maybe a “normal” race isn’t a perfect fit for him, but it’s a better fit than anything else. Why shouldn’t he be able to race with his closest competition?

I mean, there is no good reason to split of wrestling into weight classes rather than being one big free for all. But somewhere along the line we decided that sports works best when people are competing against people who are closely matched with them. And these runners are his closest match. This guy runs, and these are the people he is best matched to run against. Why should he spend race after boring race easily winning just because we’ve decided that him having a good tough race offends our sensibilities? Again, even if it isn’t a perfect fit, it’s the best fit.

123

You completely missed my point, which is no matter what this guy Pistorius is going to get dumped on. He’s considered “too good” by some for the paralymics, “too good” by some to be in the regular Olympics, and if he doesn’t win every race, well, that just proves he sucks despite his advantages, right?

In other words, some people think no matter what he’s in the wrong. That’s rather sad, don’t you think? Has nothing to do with training, has to do with other people being dicks.

124

Unfortunate; very.

125

Don’t be disingenuous. The problem wrt the Olympics *isn’t *that he’s “too good” or he sucks in spite of his advantages; the problem is that, regardless of performance, he isn’t playing the same game as anybody else there. He doesn’t have feet, he’s running on two prosthetics! They could make a category for double-lower-amputees running on cheetah prosthetics, and he’d be the only one in it. Hooray, here’s your gold medal! …welp, that was freaking pointless. And besides, that’s not something the Olympics deals with anyway. The Paralympics already deals with categorizing disabled people (amputee, cerebral palsy, intellectual disability, wheelchair, visually impaired, other), so it’s on *them *to handle this situation. If enough people complain or refuse to compete because they can’t compete with this guy’s prosthetics, maybe they should separate single amputees from double amputees in the same way they separate people in wheelchairs from people without them. Make sense?

The one-legged Paralympians who bitched because he beat them with a more severe handicap than theirs are very poor sports, and you know it. He belongs in the Paralympics, case fucking closed.

126

And the able-bodied who bitch because he beat them with a handicap are very poor sports - oh, wait, they haven’t been bitching.

He’s not the first disabled Olympian. There is nothing in the Olympic rules that forbid a handicapped athlete from competing. He’s not even the first with a prosthetic leg to compete. Here’s a list:

George Eyser, gymnast - three gold medals in 1904. Had prosthetic left leg.
Olivér Halassy, water polo - 1928, 1932, 1936, Leg amputee.
Lis Hartel, equestrian - 1952, silver medal. Paralyzed by polio, couldn’t get on and off the horse herself but once on she sure could ride.
Ildikó Rejtö, fencing - two gold, one silver, two bronze between 1960 and 1976. Deaf.
Jeff Float, swimming - 1984, deaf.
Neroli Fairhall, archery - 1984, competed from a wheelchair
Paula Fantato, archery - 1996, another wheelchair competitor, first athlete to compete in both the Olympics and paralymics in the same year
Terence Parkin, swimming - 2000. Completely deaf so they used a strobe light to communicate the start of the race. Oddly, no one bitched about that concession.
Marla Runyan, running - 2004 and 2008. Legally blind. If I recall, there was some concern about whether or not she could stay in her lane or not but it worked out.
Natalie du Toit, open water swimming - 2008, leg amputee.
Natalia Partyka, table tennis - 2008, arm amputee’
Im Dong Hyun, archer - 2012, visiually impaired (his team won bronze this year)

There is, apparently, ample precedent for the disabled competing against the able-bodied, they don’t “belong” in the paralympics and frankly the way you phrased that is offensive.

Again, if there is an issue with Pistorius’ equipment that can be dealt with. What he does is running. What you’re doing is quibbling over details so he can be pigeonholed with the rest of the cripples. It’s telling that the rest of the runners don’t seem to object to Pistorius competing among them.

127

And she won a medal as well.

She was, and is a hero in New Zealand.

There was a lot of controversy at the time with many people* complaining that she had an unfair advantage as the chair provided a “more stable platform” than the legs of other competitors.

For Pistoris, his timings are close enough to the best in the world that it is inspiring to see him, which can only be good for the sport and for amputees etc. Given that his times are not better than the very best, there is not enough reason to disqualify him.

Although I do suspect that technology WILL reach the stage where amputees will have a discernible advantage - that time is not here yet. So let him compete.

  • yeah, a highly scientific term, but I was 10 so sue me:)
128

Either prosthetics are acceptable, or they are not. You can’t tell Pistorius that he’s allowed to compete, as long as he doesn’t get too good, that’s a terrible way to run a sport, and is unfair to him. When do you decide that he’s too good?

Let’s say he (or the next prosthetic user) doesn’t lose a race for 10 years. Is it the prosthetic, or is he just the next Edwin Moses? He blows away the long jump record, is it the prosthetic, or is he the next Bob Beamon?

129

Wheelchair basketball has different rules from regular basketball and running is pretty much running. A team of guys in wheelchairs is never going to be able to compete with five professional players who can stand up. If that becomes the case, we can discuss whether or not it’s fair.

I don’t think that’s a coincidence at all.

It wasn’t a publicity stunt. He’s never going to win a medal in the Olympics and he knows it, but he’s legitimately among the best 400-meter runners in the world.

No. I’m not sure why I keep getting asked this question. I think my answer was complete and sensible:

Does this fail to answer the question?

I can’t, no. I’ll add this to the pile of goofball possibilities that have been brought up in this thread. :wink:

It would be similar if wheelchair basketball were played according to the same rules as standard baskeball and a team of players in wheelchairs was among the few dozen best teams in the world and was able to beat teams of able-bodied players. That not being the case, it’s a nonissue. Since players in wheelchairs are several feet shorter than professional players, are slower, and can’t jump, I don’t think it’s ever going to be a problem.

What he’s doing is easily understandable as running even though it works a bit differently for him. The fact that his legs were amputated below the knee doesn’t make it that different as far as I’m concerned.

There’s no reason that has to be the case. If need be, they can make rules about the types or the properties of the prosthetics. This is like saying you either have to allow all swimsuits or none, all baseball bats or none, all tennis racquets or none, or all racecars or none.

130

And indeed, if you look at the rules for what’s allowed, just for example, in road cycling, equipment rules are often insanely detailed and complicated. I see no reason that track & field’s governing body couldn’t rule certain prosthetics in and others out.

131

Which is exactly why Pistorius is racing on 14 year old Cheetah blades. There are more advanced prosthetic limbs available today but the one’s he’s using have been demonstrated to confer no mechanical advantage.

132

All of this has already happened. Pistorius’ presence is the demonstration. He hasn’t won an Olympic medal yet, but being allowed to qualify for Olympic heats means he has nominally beaten out thousands of serious able-bodied runners. There are a fixed number of slots in Olympic events. Letting Pistorius have one means that, somewhere, a runner has been denied the title of Olympian–the most meaningful “prize” most Olympians ever earn–because he has feet. Because his best times were posted on the same equipment every other competitor, but one, has to use. What kind of sense does that make? Surely that guy was a better “fit” for the event than Pistorius, by every standard except feel-good marketing.

I expect the ones whose Olympic shot wasn’t denied haven’t been complaining openly, because they know how people like you would give them shit about being “poor sports” for it.

Except for, arguably, the wheelchair archers, none of those people were using any personal equipment to replace their missing or damaged parts. They were just competing with their disabilities–not at all the same thing as engineering compensation for them.

133

Such rending of garments and wailing!

:smiley:

134

Or, because they recognize this for what it really is: a very good runner being brought close to a level playing field from his disability. And they seem to support and applaud his inclusion.

135

Well, of course neither of us knows for sure what they really think. And there’s no reason to think that their opinions are unanimous. Or necessarily right.

A level field would be when Pistorius takes his running machines off. Or everyone else puts them on (though the latter would no longer be the same event).

136

And everyone would have the same track shoes, training facilities, nutrition, and coaches.

But the tests show that the Cheetah blades don’t confer any mechanical advantage over flesh and blood legs, which is why no one is complaining.

137

And the track must be straight! The inner lanes on an oval track force runners to turn more sharply, thereby increasing stress on their ankles and knees. Unfair!

138

He never will, and he clearly knows it.

The fact that Pistorius beat runners who do have feet does not mean those runners lost because they have feet. There is literally no logic to this claim.

It’s also really unfair that some of them are taller than others or have better musculature. Why isn’t somebody doing something about this? They are literally not running on the same legs!

139

You can’t be serious?

Do you really think that differences in bodies, which by the way, is half of what the games are about, is in any way analogous to mechanical legs? They are engineered. And it’s not a given that they aren’t any more efficient than human legs.

As I linked to above, experts are split as to advantage, and factually he is able to swing his legs faster than anyone else. Because he has carbon fiber springs instead of feet.

140

Yes, it’s been pointed out Usain Bolt is significantly taller than his competitors and with a longer stride. It takes him only 41 steps to run the 100 meter dash instead of the usual 44. Obviously we need to have separate running divisions based on height!

:rolleyes:

Maybe we should put all of Bolt’s competitors on stilts so they’ll have the same stride he does.

:rolleyes: