# Should this kid be in the Army? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 13, 2008, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505 "2008-11-13T08:00:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/41 "2008-11-15T04:14:36Z")
> [@](#): > > FWIW, I’m sick of people saying “ticket to Iraq” like it’s a bad thing. I think Veteran’s Day should be about punching those people in the face. How dare you suggest that the kid should run from a war. What are the chances of dying/being injured in Iraq today? Next to nothing? Nothing+1? Indeed, because the only possible objection to going to Iraq other than fear of death. Every single person unwilling to go there is scared. It is inconceivable that they might have another reason, such as objecting to the war on principle. Cowardice is their only possible motivation. > [@SSG\_Schwartz](#): > > There are also cooks, truck drivers, parachute riggers, plumbers and many other jobs that killing is not a job requirement. That is a point of view that some people have, certainly. It’s not one that I’ve ever been particularly sympathetic to. From my point of view, most army jobs require some sort of participation in killing, or at least helping killers to perform. To a greater or lesser extent, depending on the job. Look at it this way. There have been a huge number of people convicted for murder, who are of the opinion that they didn’t kill anyone: _I just drove the getaway car. My partner is the one who shot the guy. I wasn’t even armed. I’m not a killer, my partner is._ From their point of view they are not killers. Other people have a different point of view, and hold the driver responsible. Unfortunately for the driver, the judge and the jury usually holds the second point of view. Military people who claim I’m not a killer usually seem to me to be making the same justification. In my opinion a counselor who assists soldiers to deal with killing is partly responsible for the killing. ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/42 "2008-11-15T05:41:50Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > … > Military people who claim I’m not a killer usually seem to me to be making the same justification. In my opinion a counselor who assists soldiers to deal with killing is partly responsible for the killing. Do you really have to hijack this thread? Look, **Pete** , I would love to live in this fantasy world that you live in where no one is ever killed. On second thought, no, I would not. If someone threatened your life, I would hope that I could help you. If you found yourself in a self defense situation, even to the point where you would have to kill your attacker, I would hope that I could help you process the event. I feel good about what I do. Do you? Really, do you feel that you are a better man for trying to make me out to be a bad person for helping people do what must be done? Splash some blood on my hands, I give a fuck. SSG Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/43 "2008-11-15T12:11:33Z")
The ONLY reason that some people can be pacifists is because others aren’t. If you had a nation composed entirely of pacifists then very soon it and its people would soon be the property of a nation of non pacifists. Sorry for the Hi jack. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/44 "2008-11-15T12:31:17Z")
This thread has now reached maximum safe testosterone levels. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/45 "2008-11-15T13:28:14Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > This thread has now reached maximum safe testosterone levels. Oh please. As if there ever WAS a safe level. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/46 "2008-11-15T15:16:10Z")
\*\*SSG Schwartz \*\* don’t confuse their minds with facts, they have already made it up. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/47 "2008-11-15T16:22:02Z")
**constanze, Peter Morris** , [Please](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=493039). ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/48 "2008-11-15T16:45:25Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Peter Morris seems to be under the impression that soldiers pick and choose their targets the same way outlaws do. That’s just stupid. The culprits in a murder are the triggerman and those who facilitate the killing and the killer’s egress. The culprits in a war are the politicians—the guys WITHOUT the guns. I’m not going to argue this point in the pit, I’ll stick to a forum with civilised dialogue. The culprits in war are the politicians? Yeah, I agree with that. But the soldiers are the culprits too. Men like Shwartz who will join fights just as a career option, without caring about the rights and wrongs of it, those people are to blame too. And by the way, what makes you think I’m a pacifist? If someone was to invade my country, I’d be willing to fight and kill them. I’m just not willing to participate in an unjust fight for career advancement. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/49 "2008-11-15T17:08:00Z")
Response is in The Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/50 "2008-11-15T19:06:34Z")
How about a response that follows IMHO rules? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/51 "2008-11-15T19:27:35Z")
'cuz that’d be a hijack? And the response _does_ follow IMHO rules, it’s just not in that forum. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/52 "2008-11-15T19:33:41Z")
So, if you want to follow IMHO rules, do so in IMHO. Start another thread if you want. I’m not going to participate in your pit thread. If you insist on the pit, then you are unable to make your point under IMHO rules, and are not worth talking to. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/53 "2008-11-15T19:38:40Z")
chicken …come and play! Share your logic! it’s not even a pile on really. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/54 "2008-11-15T21:48:22Z")
To answer the OP, I think that, if they would take him, the army could be a good thing for this kid. It sounds to me like his mom is being a bit too much of a mom here. Of course she doesn’t want her pwecious widdle baby to face the harsh realities of the world. That’s how she wound up with a 23 year old who still lives with mom and doesn’t know how to hold down a job. It sounds like this kid WANTS to grow up, and is just trying to figure out how to do it. I think the military would definitely help him grow up and get better opportunities in life. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/55 "2008-11-16T13:29:38Z")
> [@SSG\_Schwartz](#): > > As to your comment that “You have to obey more orders to continue”, every employee everywhere has to obey orders, from what time to show up to personal hygiene standards. Even if a person starts his own business, he will have to submit to his customers if he wants to stay in business for very long. Granted, in the Army, the Uniform Code of Military Justice can be used to enforce standards, whereas in the civilian world, you may simply be fired. Well, I think the level and amount of orders differ greatly between military and civilian life, but I admit I don’t have personal knowledge of current life in the US Army once a person has progressed beyond boot camp/basic training /low-level start job. In normal civilian jobs (and while in US culture, lot more intrusive orders regarding personal habits/appearance seem to be accepted than over here), I accept a certain job when I sign the contract (shake hands), and my boss doesn’t have to enforce discipline for split-second automatic obeyance. I’d say except for some high-level qualified and special civilian jobs (which this kid is unlikely to qualify for currently) most civilian jobs don’t require that, unlike the Army, which trains people to obey automatically because they need that instinct in battle. > [@](#): > > As to your comment about coming back dead, traumatized, or an efficient killer who blindly accepts orders without emotion, I think you seriously misunderstand the US Army. For example, my job is Combat Stress Control. I counsel the Soldiers that have been in harms way. I help them process the experience and we believe that it will minimize the possibility of PTSD. There are also cooks, truck drivers, parachute riggers, plumbers and many other jobs that killing is not a job requirement. All are trained in self-defense, none are trained to blindly follow orders. Hell, even those that are in the combat arms jobs are not trained to be mindless killers. That would be an extreme combat stress reaction and would mean that the combat stress control teams are not doing their jobs. > > SSG Schwartz The basic job of the Army (any Army) is to kill other soldiers. Yes, there are support jobs, but these still enable the killing itself. Also, you don’t have a guarantee that you won’t be transferred from being a truck driver to going around on patrol shooting people. As for the general idea of the US Army, it’S mostly from news reports about how the US soldiers behave, and from reports and interviews with soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/56 "2008-11-16T13:33:26Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > First of all, the Peace Corps does not exist to give slackers a free plane ticket to an exotic locale. This kid doesn’t even have a GED and has never held down a serious job, and you think he’s going to live in a remote African village and be responsible for an important task? The Peace Corps is a major commitment, and the candidate must either have a Bachelor’s degree or some kind of amazing experience (like your parents were missionaries and you grew up all over the world and speak five languages) to get in. Americorps _might_ accept this kid. _Might_. > > He might volunteer with HfH, but other than some church missions I don’t know of any HfH program that involves sending people far away for extended periods of time, well, none that don’t involve paying money, which he’d probably have to get from his mother. Once again, even if he got that involved, he’d have to demonstrate responsibility and willingness to respect and work with others. Well, I don’t have detailed knowledge and info about the US programs, but about German programs. I just supposed there would be some kind of similar programs, even though I don’t know the exact names of which program does what and accepts whom. > [@](#): > > The National park jobs you’re talking about is likely the [SCA](http://www.thesca.org). Like the other programs, _if_ he gets a position, he will have to show up for work on time, be polite and respectful, stay off drugs, and work hard. But that’s what he should and is willing to try to learn, right? ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/57 "2008-11-17T17:00:32Z")
[quote=“constanze, post:56, topic:472505”] Well, I don’t have detailed knowledge and info about the US programs, but about German programs. I just supposed there would be some kind of similar programs, even though I don’t know the exact names of which program does what and accepts whom. JobCorps is designed for people like the kid in the OP. Not Peace Corps. Not the SCA. Not even really Americorps. All those programs are for people who are _already_ educated, responsible adults. > [@constanze](#): > > But that’s what he should and is willing to try to learn, right? He needs to get cleaned up and get a GED, first of all. There’s no reason other people should waste good money and good jobs on this kid until then. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/58 "2008-11-17T18:31:31Z")
Regarding the asthma, bear in mind that all we know about it is the mother’s say-so. She could be saying “asthma” as a form of denial of the kid’s smoking habits. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/59 "2008-11-17T19:18:17Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Regarding the asthma, bear in mind that all we know about it is the mother’s say-so. She could be saying “asthma” as a form of denial of the kid’s smoking habits. And all asthma is not created equal. When I enlisted I would cough and wheeze for 30 minutes after running only a quarter mile just because I was in pisspoor shape. 2 months later I was knocking out 2 miles in under 14 minutes and fully recovered after a minute or two of breathing hard. ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505/60 "2008-11-18T03:35:34Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > The basic job of the Army (any Army) is to kill other soldiers. Yes, there are support jobs, but these still enable the killing itself. **Also, you don’t have a guarantee that you won’t be transferred from being a truck driver to going around on patrol shooting people.** [Bolding mine] Yeah, actually, you do. We train all Soldiers to defend themselves. We also train all Soldiers in their job, which the Soldier has chosen. The Army does not waste that time that has been spent training someone in a job to make the person go around on patrol shooting people unless that is a part of the job description. I still don’t understand why people would think otherwise. SSG Schwartz [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-kid-be-in-the-army/472505.md?page=4)