# Should this man be allowed in the classroom? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 10, 2005, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803 "2005-03-10T07:19:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/21 "2005-03-10T19:31:11Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > It sounds to me like the Jesuits are not into smacking kids in Christ’s name. Then Le Moyne is the first Jesuit school in the history of St. Ignatius to not do so. My freshman english teacher, Fr. Stark, SJ, had a handshake of death he would inflict on unruly students. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/22 "2005-03-10T19:42:01Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > Plus in my personal opinion the guy sounds like a psycho. Well, if he’s a psycho then most of my teachers were psychos. Of course, when I went to school more than 40 years ago, things were different., and if those same teachers were still around today, they’d be following what the rules are today. I think it’s one thing to believe in, and advocate, corporal punishment, and quite another whether you would impose it when you know the rules are against it. There is no evidence here that this guy is likely to break the rules. At the most, the school should say: “Your views are out-of-date, and go against current policy. So, if you become a teacher, you know you are going to have to teach without using corporal punishment. If you can’t accept that, then you shouldn’t become a teacher.” ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/23 "2005-03-10T19:43:37Z")
I’d be happy to have this teacher in a school system which my child attended. I’ve been popped by a few teachers in my distant past, and following that, they had no more problems with me. I’d say (extreme, abuse situations excluded) that most kids need a good swift smack on the ass. It’d likely make less of the current crop of disrespectful punk kids that seem to be turning up now a days. I’d bet it was all the liberal nonsense fed to them when they were kids! My only evidence is what I saw in my Parent’s house… My sister and I were exposed to corporal punishment as kids, and turned out pretty good. My brother who was born much later, was not, but rather raised to “feel the love”, and has been the troublemaker / black sheep of the family. YMMV. -butler ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/24 "2005-03-10T20:01:18Z")
> [@butler1850](#): > > My sister and I were exposed to corporal punishment as kids, and turned out pretty good. I was exposed to corporal punishment (in the home), and I have to take antidepressants for the rest of my life. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/25 "2005-03-10T20:11:21Z")
Corporal punishment aside: > [@](#): > > For example, many educators focus on nurturing students’ self-esteem, but Mr. McConnell scoffed at that idea in his paper. He said he would not favor some students over others, regardless of any special needs some might have. > > “I will help the child understand that respect of authority figures is more important than their self-esteem,” he wrote. I suspect the school is basing their decision on the evident fact that he’ll be a horrible teacher given his paper as a whole, but the corporal-punishment thing provides McConnell a nice “lookit the oppressed Xian” thing to get some publicity and an easy hook for the news articles (and subsequent debate, considering it’s the only thing being discussed in this thread). This guy doesn’t belong anywhere near a classroom. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/26 "2005-03-10T20:39:06Z")
Any teacher with decent classroom management skills should have no need of, or interest in, physical punishment. An effective teacher is respected in the classroom, not feared. The guy is clearly not cut out for teaching. The school certainly has a right, or even an obligation, to assure that its graudates will be competent teachers. It just seems really unlikely to me that this one paper was an isolated incident. The fact that he’s claiming religious persecution especially pegs my BS meter. ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/27 "2005-03-10T21:19:01Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > I was exposed to corporal punishment (in the home), and I have to take antidepressants for the rest of my life. My compassion goes out to you, I’d have to assume this is an extreme case, which I do not support. It can turn to abuse quickly, and this is where it becomes a problem. If you have serious psychological problems from minor dicipline (if it wasn’t the abuse mentioned above), then I’m going to have to bet that there were other issues that would have manifested themselves from another source. Just my observation, IANAPshrink. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/28 "2005-03-10T21:21:38Z")
All I know is I don’t take kindly to anyone who says he wants to hit my children. Any teacher who actually lays a hand on my kids is going to end up in the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![50million](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/9fc348/32.png) [@50million](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/50million)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/29 "2005-03-10T22:00:00Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > Any teacher with decent classroom management skills should have no need of, or interest in, physical punishment. An effective teacher is respected in the classroom, not feared. The guy is clearly not cut out for teaching. The school certainly has a right, or even an obligation, to assure that its graudates will be competent teachers. > > It just seems really unlikely to me that this one paper was an isolated incident. The fact that he’s claiming religious persecution especially pegs my BS meter. Twoflower has it perfectly. The only thing I can add is that corporal punishmet teaches only that it is ok to hit someone if you don’t like what they just did. It in NO WAY teaches respect for authority figures, which is what this idiot claims to be teaching. This man should be allowed only in the Abu Graib (sp?) classroom. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/30 "2005-03-10T22:32:25Z")
I didn’t think he should have been expelled from the school because he was writing a paper on a contested educational teaching issue. I can’t imagine some of my assier classmates getting chucked out of lawschool because they think we should reduce protections for criminal defendants. Hell, even Hale managed to graduate from an accredited lawschool down the street. However, the man is clearly a loon. On the issue of special needs kids his issue was not on making sure they feel good about themselves but that they learn how to respect authority at the expense of their self-esteem (I read this article an hour ago over lunch and I remember that quotation) and he expressly rejects teaching multiculturalism because of the September 11th attacks, which I guess was a conspiracy on the part of every single country in the world. The guy sounds like a first-grade ass. His position on smacking children isn’t even the primary reason why I wouldn’t want him around my children. He’s basically a paranoid, crazed hick. ---
**Author:** ![DaddyTimesTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@DaddyTimesTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaddyTimesTwo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/31 "2005-03-10T22:52:11Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > All I know is I don’t take kindly to anyone who says he wants to hit my children. Any teacher who actually lays a hand on my kids is going to end up in the hospital. What’s the logical fallacy where you stretch the other side’s argument to the absurd? The guy doesn’t want to punch all the kids as a matter of course (presumably after praying, I mean, the guy is an evangelical Xian). And the tough talk is amusing. I’m more concerned with the Christian fundamentalist basis he gives for his belief in smacking kids. And if some punk sixth grader swore at me, I might think a smack on the butt with a paddle might teach him a lesson. The guy back-pedals in the article, too, he says only kids with parental permission would be subject and the principal would be doing the punishment. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/32 "2005-03-10T22:55:43Z")
I dated a guy from Oklahoma and that was actually their system-the parents had to give permission and either the principal or the coach did it so I don’t think he’s really back-pedalling but laying out the structure that he grew up under. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/33 "2005-03-10T23:24:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > All I know is I don’t take kindly to anyone who says he wants to hit my children. Any teacher who actually lays a hand on my kids is going to end up in the hospital. The guy got an A- on the paper, so someone thought his ideas had merit. (I don’t, but someone in authority did.) How do you go from “corporal punishment might have its applications” to “someone wants to hit my children”? And if you would put someone in the hospital for “laying a hand” on your kids, are you not advocating physical violence as punishment? Would that punishment fit the crime? Is there not a touch of hypocrisy there? If I were kicked out of school for writing an A paper I would fight tooth and nail to be reinstated. The situation is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/34 "2005-03-11T00:08:46Z")
> [@50million](#): > > Corporal punishmet teaches only that it is ok to hit someone if you don’t like what they just did. It in NO WAY teaches respect for authority figures, which is what this idiot claims to be teaching. That’s absurd. Compare it to: “Time-outs teach only that it is ok to forceably restrain somone for a certain period of time if you don’t like what they just did,” or “Withholding allowance teaches only that it is ok to use financial power to force others to bend to your will.” If the _only_ thing a child learns from being punished is the efficacy and propriety of the form of punishment in getting what they want, you’ve either got a sociopath on your hands or you’re doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/35 "2005-03-11T00:46:07Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Would that punishment fit the crime? Is there not a touch of hypocrisy there? Combine the ‘protecting your kids’ thing and the ‘picking on somebody your own size’ thing and I think that explains it. Meanwhile, **TwoFlower** made an excellent post. There’s a reason you don’t see that much corporal punishment anymore. I suspect that if corporal punishment is such a brilliant and effective method, it would still be used often. Perhaps the fact that a generation of students grew up and outlawed it should mean something? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/36 "2005-03-11T00:54:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > How do you go from “corporal punishment might have its applications” to “someone wants to hit my children”? If someone with authority over my children expresses a fondness for “coroporal punishment,” (i.e hitting children witha piece of wood) then I’m going to read that as a guy who wants to hit my kids. > [@](#): > > And if you would put someone in the hospital for “laying a hand” on your kids, are you not advocating physical violence as punishment? Would that punishment fit the crime? Is there not a touch of hypocrisy there? I’m advocating (a little hyperbolically maybe) a zealous defense of my children against a physical assault. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/37 "2005-03-11T02:25:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Combine the ‘protecting your kids’ thing and the ‘picking on somebody your own size’ thing and I think that explains it. > > Meanwhile, **TwoFlower** made an excellent post. There’s a reason you don’t see that much corporal punishment anymore. I suspect that if corporal punishment is such a brilliant and effective method, it would still be used often. Perhaps the fact that a generation of students grew up and outlawed it should mean something? It is not at all clear to me that if **Dio** assaults someone and causes serious injury \*after the fact \* that “protecting your kids” is a reasonable defense. He admitted to hyperbole in his post. Read my post again. I do not support corporal punishment. The man in question is in no position to punish students. Whether or not he supports corporal punishment, it is witless to assume that he \*would actually do \* _so_ if it is not allowed in whatever school district he might work for. For goodness sake, he wrote an A paper and got bounced for it! Does this not seem a little strange to you? ---
**Author:** ![50million](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/9fc348/32.png) [@50million](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/50million)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/38 "2005-03-11T02:28:18Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > That’s absurd. Compare it to: “Time-outs teach only that it is ok to forceably restrain somone for a certain period of time if you don’t like what they just did,” or “Withholding allowance teaches only that it is ok to use financial power to force others to bend to your will.” > > If the _only_ thing a child learns from being punished is the efficacy and propriety of the form of punishment in getting what they want, you’ve either got a sociopath on your hands or you’re doing it wrong. Walrus, Forceably restraining and financial consequences are the two main forms the American legal system uses to punish crime; jail and lawsuits. (Except for capital punishment, which is a little to extreme to consider for this discussion.) If you run your car into mine I have the right to sue, if you don’t pay you could go to jail. Hitting you is not an option given to me. This guy was hit when others disagreed with what he had done. Now he thinks it is ok to hit others when he disagrees with what they did. Hitting a child is for people who aren’t smart enough to come up with a more rational or reasonal punishment. If you disagree and can explain in a rational argument that hitting a child is an appropriate response then please do. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/39 "2005-03-11T02:50:16Z")
[QUOTE=50million] > [@](#): > > This guy was hit when others disagreed with what he had done. Now he thinks it is ok to hit others when he disagrees with what they did. Can you elaborate on that? > [@](#): > > Hitting a child is for people who aren’t smart enough to come up with a more rational or reasonal punishment. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803/40 "2005-03-11T03:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > “It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like a symbol, a strong Christian symbol,” Christian? What did he beat them with-a cross? You know, the most effective teacher who ever taught me was a tiny little nun in her seventies, Sister Frances. She was my first grade teacher, and she never laid a finger on us, well, at least not in anger. (She always gave us hugs-we used to swarm her all the time) No, when you did something wrong, you got a lecture-on how what you did was wrong, that you were NOT doing what was right, that you were smarter than that-so why could you do such a stupid thing. Then she’d give you that sad, ashamed look and shake her head. And right then, you felt like shit-the pain of a paddle was NOTHING compared to the pain of Letting Sister Frances Down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-allowed-in-the-classroom/293803.md?page=3)