# Should this man be charged with 1st degree intentional homicide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776 "2006-01-26T22:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/21 "2006-01-27T15:25:53Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You can take the guy out of the Public Defender, but you can’t take the public defender out of the guy. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/22 "2006-01-27T15:27:08Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Sneaking up behind some car burglar and shooting him in the back is by no means reasonable. There was nothing to indicate that was the only way to protect the property nor that using another means would be dangerous. It’s true that there is nothing to indicate this… yet. But we haven’t heard his story yet, either. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/23 "2006-01-27T15:32:59Z")
Note to **Bricker, Hamlet** and other Dopers-at-Law: Your presence is requested in the Eminent Domain thread; there’s a tricky question of Constitutional law in re the _Kelo vs. New London_ decision which has come up. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Stentor\_2.5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@Stentor\_2.5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stentor_2.5)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/24 "2006-01-27T15:54:44Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > When you’re a thief. So under your logic anybody who has ever stolen anything deserves the death penalty. Should we execute them one at a time or should we build gas chambers to make things more efficient? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/25 "2006-01-27T15:56:12Z")
> [@Stentor 2.5](#): > > So under your logic anybody who has ever stolen anything deserves the death penalty. Should we execute them one at a time or should we build gas chambers to make things more efficient? Yes and no, respectively. When did I ever say I was in favor of the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/26 "2006-01-27T16:01:39Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Yes and no, respectively. When did I ever say I was in favor of the death penalty? Are you saying you would feel justified in killing three guys who were trying to steal your car? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/27 "2006-01-27T16:07:44Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Are you saying you would feel justified in killing three guys who were trying to steal your car? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/28 "2006-01-27T16:11:39Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Yes. Jesus. We’re doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/29 "2006-01-27T16:13:15Z")
And your logic for taking all these lives is WHAT exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/30 "2006-01-27T16:18:21Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And your logic for taking all these lives is WHAT exactly? What’s your logic that thieves deserve to live? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/31 "2006-01-27T16:18:31Z")
Note to self: If you ever work in the same office as **Ludovic** , don’t ever swipe the stapler off his desk. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/32 "2006-01-27T16:19:26Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Morally, he had a right to kill every one of them. ’ And if your son or daughter went through a “young punk” stage, you’d understand if they got shot down in the street for trying to steal someone’s CDs and parking change? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/33 "2006-01-27T16:19:55Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > What’s your logic that thieves deserve to live? Stealing your shit isn’t a good enough reason to kill a person. What makes your shit so special? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/34 "2006-01-27T16:22:22Z")
Yes, he’s a murderer. There is no self-defense scenario here and you don’t have a right to kill somebody to protect mere property…and this wasn’t even the killer’s property, it was his _girlfriend’s_ property. He also lied to cops. He needs to spend the rest of his life in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/35 "2006-01-27T16:24:00Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > What’s your logic that thieves deserve to live? They were human beings who were not threatening anybody. Do you have some notion that any more than that is required? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/36 "2006-01-27T16:25:18Z")
In my experience, I’ve found that the guys with the most bravado are the ones who puss out when they’re actually confronted with taking action to right a wrong. That includes shooting a guy who doesn’t pose a threat to their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/37 "2006-01-27T16:33:25Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > What’s your logic that thieves deserve to live? I once stole ciggarettes from a supermarket when I was 14. I still think I deserve to live. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/38 "2006-01-27T16:39:36Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > In my experience, I’ve found that the guys with the most bravado are the ones who puss out when they’re actually confronted with taking action to right a wrong. That includes shooting a guy who doesn’t pose a threat to their lives. Where did I say I’d do it, or that I should be legally able to do it? I just said I’d feel justified. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/39 "2006-01-27T16:41:22Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Where did I say I’d do it, or that I should be legally able to do it? I just said I’d feel justified. And that statement is what makes you 1) a danger to society, and 2) extremely unlikeable. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/40 "2006-01-27T16:59:05Z")
OK folks, let’s lay off **Ludovic** for the moment, he clearly has a right to feel the way he does (though I wish he’d give it some more thought, or a better explanation). I don’t think there’s any way he should be charged with 1st Degree Intentional Homicide. That is the most anyone can be charged with in terms of a murder. That means he’s on the same playing field as a guy who plans months ahead of time to kill a specific person. He’s not. Further, I think that some leniency needs to be given when _any_ otherwise law abiding citizen reacts to criminal activity in a preventative manner. If someone is trying to thwart an obvious crime (I’m not talking about the 10 year old that takes a pack of gum from the store or the lady that embezzles $100 from the church) and it was determined that they acted out of the bounds of the law in this defense, the two crimes should cancel each other out in some manner. In this case the three men would have been charged with attempted auto theft, so they should knock the equivolent off of the homicide charge. Whatever that may be. IOW, if your criminal behavior was in response to someone elses criminal behavior then there should be a different set of rules to govern your conviction. After all, if they hadn’t decided to attempt to steal a car that night none of this would matter. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > And that statement is what makes you 1) a danger to society, and 2) extremely unlikeable. Well, in his defense, he’s only going to be a _potential_ danger to society, that is, until someone chooses to become a danger to him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776.md?page=3)