# Should this man be charged with 1st degree intentional homicide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776 "2006-01-26T22:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/61 "2006-01-28T10:42:17Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Exactly what should be done to those who commit these crimes to prevent them from doing so in the future and to make those of us, who would like to have been able to use force to stop them, feel good about not using deadly force? > Are current penalties for such crimes enough of a deterent? > Is a class A misdemeanor enough of a charge? > Why not make all theft a felony with harsher penalties? > That would put these thugs away longer and give pause to otherwise law-abiding citizens from using force to stop them. They should be arrested and locked up (Wow…radical concept, huh?). I really don’t care how you “feel” because you weren’t legally allowed to blow someone’s fucking head off for stealing a car. If you want to live in a society where the punishment doesn’t fit the crime, there are places like Afghanistan who will oblige you, I’m sure. Auto theft is a property crime, not a violent crime. YOU are the violent criminal if you kill someone for stealing your stuff. _Are current penalties a deterrent?_ Well, I have no idea how to answer that. But if you think someone needs to die over a car theft, you place entirely too much value on your stuff. I think locking them up for a longer period would be a better choice. _Why not make all theft a felony?_ Because it’s too harsh for most crimes. The bastards that should be locked away forever…the Enron crooks and their ilk…won’t be. Your grand theft auto scenario pales by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/62 "2006-01-28T13:06:15Z")
Some more information: > [@The Racine Report](#): > > Here’s what Ropiak told the court: > > He was five blocks away from the scene of the crime when he heard dispatchers send other officers to 15th and Arthur for a report of shots fired. Ropiak went to the scene and found White standing outside in shorts with two women. Ropiak said none of them said they had heard noises that sounded like gunshots, but told him some kids had been “monkeying with” a car and that they ran off. He found a shoe in the alley. > [@JournalTimes.com](#): > > Based on the criminal complaint filed in Racine County Circuit Court on Friday, here is the sequence of events which led to the death of Christopher “Eric” Carbajal, 19, early Wednesday morning. > > … > > When they had been gone for more than 2 minutes, Jardina became worried and went to look for them. He found them at a white Saturn, with the doors and trunk open. Christopher Carbajal was in the back seat and Serra was in the front. > > A house door opened, and a black man came out wearing only shorts or long boxers and demanding to know what the young men were doing. > > Jardina turned and ran, and heard gunshots behind him. Police later found a hole where a bullet had apparently passed through all three shirts he was wearing but without breaking his skin. > > He reached the van and started to drive, picking up Serra, who was bleeding from the face and mouth. An X-ray later showed a bullet lodged in his lower left jaw. > > Jardina saw Christopher Carbajal lying in the alley, and Richard dragged him in. At first the men drove to St. Luke’s Hospital, and when they realized its emergency room had closed, they drove to St. Mary’s Medical Center. Christopher Carbajal died there as the result of a gunshot wound in the back. > > A police officer called to the scene on a report of gunshots found Adrial White, shirtless, standing at the Saturn with two women. All three said they had not heard any shots. [Cite](http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2006/01/21/local/iq_3866206.txt) > [@JournalTimes.com](#): > > Adrial C. White’s attorney has said his client acted in self-defense when he fired shots at three teenagers accused of breaking into his girlfriend’s car early Wednesday morning. > > … > > “These kids drove to two different hospitals,” D’Arruda said. "Who’s to say they didn’t ditch the gun on the way to the hospital? A lot of things look like a gun. > > “I assume they didn’t just use their hands (to break into the car). They had a screwdriver or some type of tool or object. At 4:30 in the morning, one kid stands up and raises a metal object in his hand, how do you know that’s not a gun?” D’Arruda said he cannot disclose whether White said the teenagers held up a weapon, because of attorney-client privilege, but said White’s version of events will come out at trial. > > … > > District Attorney Michael Nieskes said while there are cases under Wisconsin law where the use of deadly force against another is justifiable, based on the information in the criminal complaint, the charge of first-degree intentional homicide was appropriate in this case. > > “In Wisconsin, you can use deadly force to stop the imminent use of great bodily harm or death to another individual,” he said. “Protection of property by the use of deadly force is not allowed.” [Cite](http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2006/01/24/local/iq_3870227.txt) It seems to me that that the defense will have to try and make it a defense of person case, which, to be effective, means that either White or his girlfriend will have to take the stand and say one of the two in the car put them in fear of imminent use of bodily harm. Of course, the fact that they said they didn’t even hear shots when the police interviewed them at the scene doesn’t help, nor does the fact the police didn’t find any weapons, but juries can find reasonable doubt anywhere. Especially in iffy cases like this, where the victims are non-sympathetic. I do not think deadly force should be justified in protection of property cases. You will, of course, have people like **Ludovic** and **Clothahump** who feel I heir property is more important than a human life and that the death penalty is appropriate for theft, but I disagree. But that’s probably just 'cause I’m soft on crime. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/63 "2006-01-28T13:43:28Z")
Listen folks, the thought I made it clear that the question of what people _deserve_ is different from what actual punishment should be. And I don’t believe, for instance, that stealing cigarettes or bubble gum deserves to be met with death (in that case, it depends on your state of mind: if it’s just a joke or a whim, that’s one thing, but if you think you deserve it or are doing it for monetary gain, you do deserve to be, how shall I put it, “taken down a peg or two”.) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/64 "2006-01-28T13:45:45Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > ou live in Orlando (presumably Florida; correct me if I’m wrong). And you want to buy a gun to protect you from shit happening in France? The fact that I _haven’t_ should moderate your view on my paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/65 "2006-01-28T15:47:07Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Listen folks, the thought I made it clear that the question of what people _deserve_ is different from what actual punishment should be. And I don’t believe, for instance, that stealing cigarettes or bubble gum deserves to be met with death (in that case, it depends on your state of mind: if it’s just a joke or a whim, that’s one thing, but if you think you deserve it or are doing it for monetary gain, you do deserve to be, how shall I put it, “taken down a peg or two”.) That’s the problem. You feel they “deserve” to die for stealing something. Most people in civilized society don’t feel that way. If bubble-gum theives don’t deserve death, tell me…at what point do thieves deserve to die? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/66 "2006-01-28T16:25:16Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > That’s the problem. You feel they “deserve” to die for stealing something. Most people in civilized society don’t feel that way. If bubble-gum theives don’t deserve death, tell me…at what point do thieves deserve to die? That’s the thing: feeling isn’t necessarily rational. While the two cases are clear-cut to me, I haven’t thought about it enough to delineate the actual line, since it will almost certainly never be used. Clear-cut cases: Spammers (which of course is sometimes a fine line, but I’m talking the classic, forged-address, won’t-remove-from-mailing-list spammer. Death. I’m serious. If there were perfect knowledge and we gave several months notice I’d have no problem lopping their heads off.) White-collar criminals stealing $10,000 or more Car thieves Burglars (no matter what the value.) Muggers (no matter what the value.) Scammers (no matter what the value.) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/67 "2006-01-28T16:51:29Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Spammers (which of course is sometimes a fine line, but I’m talking the classic, forged-address, won’t-remove-from-mailing-list spammer. Death. I’m serious. If there were perfect knowledge and we gave several months notice I’d have no problem lopping their heads off.) Spammers deserve to die?? You need an extra helping of perspective, with a side of calm the fuck down. > [@Ludovic](#): > > That’s the thing: feeling isn’t necessarily rational. No. It’s not. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/68 "2006-01-28T18:51:07Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > That’s the thing: feeling isn’t necessarily rational. While the two cases are clear-cut to me, I haven’t thought about it enough to delineate the actual line, since it will almost certainly never be used. > > Clear-cut cases: > Spammers I have to admit that applying the DP to some of the worst Spyware providers out there is tempting. 😃 But I honestly don’t think that Life would be too much as a _maximum_ sentence in the worst Spyware cases. Spammers, Virus writers & Spyware providers should certainly pay a more serious price for their crime than they usually do now. I can see Ludovics point about Muggers & Burglars- and certainly I’d add Rapists. Not that I’d want to apply the DP to them (I am generally against the DP), but that after being robbed, burgled or raped the victim is never the same anymore. With a clear conscience I could send a repeat offender of any of those crimes to prison for the rest of his life- and in the more heinous cases of rape “repeat” would not be absolutely nessesary. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/69 "2006-01-28T19:05:22Z")
I would think that having the death penalty for all muggers, burglars and rapists would just result in more muggers, burglars and rapists who murder their victims. If you’re going to get the death penalty for mugging someone, you might as well kill them and eliminate a witness so that it’s less likely you’ll be caught. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/70 "2006-01-29T02:32:18Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I would think that having the death penalty for all muggers, burglars and rapists would just result in more muggers, burglars and rapists who murder their victims. > > If you’re going to get the death penalty for mugging someone, you might as well kill them and eliminate a witness so that it’s less likely you’ll be caught. Yeah, another reason not to actually implement it other than lack of epistemological rigor. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/71 "2006-01-29T17:55:05Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Basically, the guy caught some punks trying to break into his girlfriends car and shot one of them dead wounded a second and missed the third. > He’s being charged with 1st degree intentional homicide even though he was provoked by the criminal behavior of the three who are now the vicitms in this case. Was this guy’s name by any chance [Bernie Goetz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Goetz)? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776/72 "2006-01-30T13:20:39Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Was this guy’s name by any chance [Bernie Goetz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Goetz)? No, but I did think of him when constructing the OP. If you read through that link you’ll notice that the guys that Bernie shot went on to lead stellar lives in the criminal world, except for the guy in the wheel chair. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-this-man-be-charged-with-1st-degree-intentional-homicide/341776.md?page=3)