Should this mural be expurgated?

Great Debates
21

Wow, so many opportunities to say something flammable. How can one resist?

Could it be that the poster is offered in satire? When I was but a young scoundrel, “studying for the gallows”, what was known as “mens magazines” had cover illustrations very akin to the descriptions of said murals: swarthy, cigar-chompings Sgt. Death mowing down Japanese/German soldiers while gazed upon rapturously by extraordinarily endowed young women in torn and tattered clothing, tatters that clung precariously to the tip of large, pointy breasts. Perhaps said mural is a retro sarcasm on just such illustrations. As such, it would seem to be doomed to whoosh, as the denizens of such dorms must be young, and therefore have seem more aureolae than I’ve seen pennies. At the very least, it must fail to tittilate. (Yes, I tried. No, I couldn’t resist).

As to Womens Studies, in all sincerity, I just don’t get it. I have complete respect and support for all sensible feminism, equal pay, equal opportunity, equal respect, all of these are clear and obvious. Equally so, a feminist interpretation of history, literature, etc. must necessarily be valid, and worthy of investigation.

But a Womens Studies department seems to suggest a segregation of humanity that I find puzzling. Is there a “feminist” physics? A “feminist” bio-chemistry? Further, I am not sure we should be willing to allow self-described guardians to have final say in what is seen, or not seen. In my experience, feminist objections to various media representations have ranged from the cogent and intelligent to the just plain silly. I would need to know more, of course, but so far this strikes me as the latter.

And, finally, if WWII soldiers commonly carried a buxom blonde under one arm and a keg of beer under the other, then perhaps they were indeed the “Greatest Generation”. Jai vous salut!

22

I am also inclined to guess that the mural was not intended to degrade women and that the parties in question might have severely over-reacted to display strong fealty to their course requirements.

Having read course descriptions in some Women’s studies departments, they do indeed focus on feminist interpretation of history, lit etc, and on other topics such as the role of gender in society. This particular incident could be chalked up to some (overzealous?) students taking one of these courses.

23

What’s wrong with interpreting certain subjects from a feminist standpoint?

24

Nothing whatsoever. Enforcing that interpretation is a different kettle of fish.

25

Obviously a mural including a woman in a bikini is not nearly as offensive as a swastika. BTW lots of great art includes partially undressed or nude women. Do you think all such art is offensive and ought not to be displayed? IOW why is this mural particularly offensive, in your opinion?

I agree.

My point is that this was a bit of weasel wording. It’s not automatic that the same standard should apply to new art as to existing art.

That’s an interesting point. Hill’s memo says, “under today’s policy on graphic designs within the residence halls, [the mural] would not be allowed.” He doesn’t say why it wouldn’t be allowed. Nor does he say what the theme of the mural is. What do you think the theme is and why do you consider it to constitute sexual harassment?

What really bothers me is not the complaint, but the fact that this was part of an (allegedly) academic course.

Fair enough. As you know my wife and many of our friends are women scientists. In principle, women’s studies could coexist with science. However, it’s HARD to become a scientist. The more outside things that dilute a student’s attention and passion, the harder it is to succeed as a scientist.

These women’s studies profs did takes thousands of dollars of my money, when my daughters were in college. After graduation, both daughters had to then train in computers to get their jobs.

I WANT them to ask me for a job and to crowd me out. My complaint is that I think Women’s Studies is holding women back.

That’s an interesting observation. Have other posters had the same experience?

On the contrary, my writing skills got me excused from the required writing course in college. I don’t think I have a bias against humanities. I love theatre, music and literature.

However, I do have a bias against bullshi*t. ISTM that a certain amount of humanities education is bogus and that a high amount of women’s studies is bogus.

26

As an alumna of good old Iowa Straight University (I don’t tell too many people this little known fact), I can tell you that Willow Hall used to be an all-men’s dormitory. I don’t know when it went co-ed, but my guess is it may have been sometime after 1984 when the mural was painted. So it sounds like something that would be typical of a men’s dormitory. The young adults are away from home and the parents, trying on adulthood for the first real time, and sex and drinking naturally come into the picture. Nothing weird here.

I can see some people getting offended about the mural, but I doubt I would. Might depend on the look on the woman’s face in the mural. Does she look terrified? Are they getting ready to rape her at a drunken orgy? Or is she smiling and enjoying the revelrie? That would make a difference to me. She is dressed, albeit skimpily, and I’m sure there are plenty of coeds at ISU who wear the same outfit to sun themselves on campus in the warmer weather. I saw that back in 1977… I would imagine things haven’t changed that much in 25 years.

As an open-minded professional woman, I am all for sexual equality and freedom from sexual harrassment for persons of both genders. But I also get tired of some of the things women call sexual harrassment. A male supervisor promoting a “F**k me or get fired” attitude among his female underlings constitutes sexual harrassment. A male co-worker stalking a female employee (or vice versa) trying to get a date is sexual harrassment. IMHO, a cute girlie pic on a man’s calendar in his private cubicle or office does NOT constitute harrassment… and this sadly has been called harrassment. Personally, given the small amount of information we have about the mural in question, I don’t think this is harrassment either. But I am all for the women at ISU complaining and for the men who like the mural to counter-complain against the women who want it removed. THAT is what would be a great learning experience for the students… how to debate effectively to either keep or change campus policy concerning such things. Alas, the campus politic wimped out and lost the chance for the educational opportunity to occur naturally. Sounds like a lot of places of higher learning. <SIGH> :rolleyes:

27

So, precisely how does a Women’s Studies department take away from a female student becoming a scientist? Look, this is just how the world works- there are a lot of distractions out there. But I really don’t think that the mere existence of a Women’s Studies department is going to rob a student of passion for science. I don’t even think taking a class or two in another department will dilute a student’s enthousiasm. I mean, isn’t that why college students are there? To take new classes, explore options, and such? Besides, if you’re so easily distracted that a Women’s Studies department will dilute all of your passion, then maybe you weren’t meant to be a scientist, or, in this case, a student. You have to admit, that is a bit pathetic.

So…by that rational, didn’t the English, Anthropology, Sociology, Biology, French, German, Chemistry, etc…departments all take thousands of dollars from you?

I don’t see how humanities education is bogus. Is certain science/mathematics education bogus as well?

Personally, I don’t have any experience with women’s studies just yet. I haven’t taken a women’s studies course yet, so I can’t really comment. For the record, have you, and could you please tell us what’s bogus about it? And I’d also like to know how it’s holding women back. Is it just the women who major in it, or all of them as a group?

28

Why don’t you let the women involved decide if they are being held back or not?

29

I think, personally, it’s just a painting and if people want to get irked about the guys painting their kitchenette the way they want, then they’re over sensitive.

As sort of a hypothetical that’s not so hypothetical, I’d like to recount events at the University of Pittsburgh during my senior year:

A fitness club by the name Xtreme Fitness or some other spelling variation thereof put up a billboard on which there was a naked man, with all the juicy bits covered up by the pose. Beneath his picture there was the caption ‘You could stop traffic too.’ The ad ran for either six weeks or two months, and there were no complaints.

At the end of the run of that ad, using the same slogan and the same idea, they put a naked woman on the billboard, once again all the juicy bits were covered by the pose. The Campus Women’s Organization and one of the student religious groups got very upset, and the outrage included an opinion article in the Pitt News by Ramesh Reddy calling for the end of exploitation of women.

So, I’d like your opinions on this issue. I tried to find a link to the article, but it seems that The Pitt News archives don’t go back far enough to cover my senior year. I’ll keep looking though.

Was the billboard featuring the male model exploiting him?

Was the billboard featuring the female model exploiting her?

If your answers to the first and second question are different, how come?

30

I’d take this one step further - I think women’s studies classes could potentially make a person (not only a woman, but anyone) a better scientist. One of the most important precepts in both fields is to look at things - it doesn’t matter what you’re looking at - from new points of view. This concept is a cornerstone of both science and humanities. The fields certanily diverge when it comes to the subjects that are studied, but I think that any class that teaches you to examine something familiar from a different angle is worthwhile.

Having said that, I think the mural is probably tacky crap, and I think it should remain in the dorm. I don’t believe that the fact that it wouldn’t be approved under today’s standards invalidates the fact that it was approved in 1984 (assuming that it was). I understand that societal standards evolve, and I’m happy that they do, but I think it’s futile to go back and try to make the past comply with the present. I think it sets a bad precedent - one that could easily lead to more overt acts of censorship.

I’m not defending the subject of the mural or the ideas of the artist, but I am defending the fact that it is art and it shouldn’t cease to exist. In addition to appealing to the senses, art is a historical record. The fact that the mural doesn’t meet the standards in place at the university today doesn’t justify the destruction of the work.

31

Enginerd, I would invite you to expand on this most interesting comment. Have you much experience with women’s studies and with science? I have experience with the latter only.

My impression of women’s studies is that it’s docrinnaire, rather than deductive or experimentally based. That is, from what I’ve read, women’s studies is more like religioun than science. Howver, I would encourage those who know more about women’s studies than I to contribute.

32

My experience with women’s studies is limited to working and living with women who are considered by most people (themselves included) to be feminists. I’ve never taken a women’s studies class, and I’ve never been a woman.

My impression of women’s studies classes is that they are no more or less indoctrination than most humanities classes in college. It’s human nature to have an opinion about issues, especially issues that you find interesting enough to earn a PhD studying. I think that it’s also human nature to want other people to agree with you, and therefore to try to communicate your opinions, and the reasons behind them, to others. I see it all the time on this message board, and I’m thankful that it happens.

Although I never took any women’s studies classes, I did take a few anthropology classes as well as engineering. It was my experience that the professors would present their own opinions as just that - their opinions. They were always receptive to other ideas, as long as they were supported with appropriate evidence.

The most significant difference I see between women’s studies and other humanities fields is in the personal involvement of the faculty and students. A north American anthropologist who studies the interactions of the Inca empire with Spanish conquistadores might identify very strongly with the Inca, but he or she will rarely feel like a victim of Spanish aggression. In women’s studies, most of the professors and students are members of the group being studied. Because of the intense personal experience, I imagine that their opinions may be held (and expressed) more strongly.

My roommate is an ardent feminist. She often points things out to me that I otherwise wouldn’t have noticed, and we’ve often discussed (and occasionally argued about) these differences. While I don’t agree with all of her ideas, I have learned a lot from her in the short time we’ve been living together. Her arguments are for the most part sound, and she’s always willing to hear (although not necessarily accept) opposing views.

December, do you know where your impression of women’s studies as merely indoctrination came from? I suspect that it’s a reflection of a very vocal, militant minority of people - both faculty and students - within the discipline.

Again, I’ve never taken any classes in women’s studies. I’d also like to hear from anyone who has.

33

Sometimes this is like hearing dirty words in Disney movies. One person swears they heard Aladdin say ‘Good teenagers take off their clothes’ and then they point it out to others and if you listen again closely you can become convinced that it’s what you heard.

Sometimes you do notice something that was there and overlooked. And sometimes, it’s a fulfilled suggestion that overwrites the words ‘Good kitty, take off and go.’

In my experiences with feminists in Campus Women’s Organization and in other places, many times sexist behavior is seen where it doesn’t exist and these attitudes were reinforced during the few classes in women’s studies that I did sit in on. They seemed to require a belief that the patriarchal oppression of women in contemporary western society is a fact.

34

That’s an excellent question. Yes, I paid for my daughters to study other fields as well. However, these other fields are more real than Women’s Studies IMHO. Anthropology, Sociology, French, Chemistry, etc. are established areas of human knowledge. They would exist even if there were no organized courses to teach them

Women’s Studies is a contrivance. It’s whatever a “Women’s Studies” teacher chooses to teach. It’s not really an independent field of knowledge. Parts of it are. The effort toward women’s emancipation included a certain number of insightful works.

But, Woman’s Studies purports to be more than just the history of the Women’s movement. As other posters have pointed out, these other bits include a supposed “women’s aspect” of various fields. In many cases, this “women’s aspect” is bogus. Ironically, it also seems blatantly sexist to pretend that a field like science is different for men and women. A woman could be harmed if she followed an ineffective :women’s studies approach" toward a scientific career.

IMHO one key problem is that many “Women’s Studies” faculty may not have the expertise to teach real stuff. In those cases, there’s no hope that a women’s studies class can have real value.

35

But december, you still havn’t told me why you are more qualified to make choices about a person’s academic career than they are. I am dieing to know!

36

If you majored in English rather then Feminist Basket Weaving, you would be ‘dying’ to know.

/runs and hides. :smiley:

37

even swen, would you care to make your point directly?

38

Okay. Hopefully none of this counts as “ad-hominem”.

I think you are being extremely disrespectful of the students that choose a women’s studies major by implying that you know how to live their lives better than they do. Your “I’m just looking out for their best interest” stance is very condenscending. Just because they are young and mostly female does not mean that they are incapable of making informed decisions about to study and should instead study nuclear physics because you want them to. You are neither female nor a part of acadamia. What on earth makes you think you have any right to claim that you know more about the value of their getting a women’s study education than they do?

Please stop treating adult women like children.

39

[ol][]I certainly have a right, and an obligation, to be concerned with my daughters’ education, because my wife and I raised them, and because we paid for it.[]I continue to contribute to college education through taxes and through alumni donations,[]I’m less concerned with students who choose women’s studies (though I think it’s generally a waste) than with colleges and professors who encourage them to make these choices. Women’s studies is a required course in some colleges.[]I don’t think Women’s Studies Professors and college administrtors are incapable of making decisions. I do think they have made some selfish decisions that are not in the best interests of their students.[]When a college offers a Woman’s Studies major, they are representing that this subject is worthy of being a college major. I consider that to be institutional fraud – akin to Enron. []And, it’s not small potatoes. Add up all the tuitin money paid for worthless Women’s Studies courses, and the total is staggering. If 1 million students spend $5000 of tuition, that’s 5 billion dollars a year. [/ol]even sven, if your criticism came from libertarian, it would be consistent. But, do you take this position in other spheres? Should we refrain from criticizing all business practices because such criticism would be demeaning of their customersn, employees and stockholders? I don’t think so.

40

december: Have you much experience with women’s studies and with science? I have experience with the latter only.

But heaven forbid that should stop you from shooting your mouth off about whether women’s studies is worth studying or whether its professors are qualified. If you don’t like it, it must be junk, and whether or not you actually know anything about it is irrelevant, right? :rolleyes:

Anthropology, Sociology, French, Chemistry, etc. are established areas of human knowledge.

So are you objecting to all “interdisciplinary” departments and courses that don’t fall into an “established” departmental structure? How do you feel about, say, my own field of history of science? Is that a “contrivance” where people can teach “only what they want to teach” instead of something “real”?

I’m not defending everything that is studied or taught by women’s studies, any more than I think that every course or assignment in English or math, or history of science for that matter, is a good thing. But I would sure want more specific and systematic evidence before I considered myself justified in running down the whole damn field. And I’m not so intellectually timid as to assume that something must be bullshit because it doesn’t have a reassuring disciplinary label like “Math” or “Law” or “Medicine” alrady stamped on it.

IMHO one key problem is that many “Women’s Studies” faculty may not have the expertise to teach real stuff. In those cases, there’s no hope that a women’s studies class can have real value.

Cite? Are you seriously accusing particular professors of Women’s Studies of being academically unqualified, or are you just making nasty little unsupported insinuations?

You remind me of the old 1950’s-era graduates of my university who write letters to the alumni magazine expressing their outrage that the Ethnomusicology program teaches, say, a whole semester course on African drumming. Academic courses on music, as far as these guys are concerned, are supposed to be about Bach and Beethoven and the history of counterpoint. They have no clue about the musicological or historical or performance traditions of African drumming, or what the teaching involves; but hey, they know what “real” music is, and anybody who works with all this “PC” “multicultural” stuff instead must just be a charlatan.

When I read complaints from people like you about the “institutional fraud” that colleges are perpetrating these days with progams like Women’s Studies or Ethnomusicology, I wonder if it could be half as bad as the institutional frauds they perpetrated forty or fifty years ago by letting such people graduate from college in a state of such self-satisfied arrogance and intellectual incuriosity.