# Should trans women be allowed to compete with women in sports. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696 "2018-06-08T16:34:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/1 "2018-06-08T16:34:35Z")
In sports where men traditionally do not compete with women (tennis, running, etc.), should trans women be allowed to compete against women? I don’t think so. I think there are physiological differences that persist no matter what transition steps have been taken. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/2 "2018-06-08T16:38:34Z")
This discussion is probably better suited to Great Debates. Thread relocated from IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/3 "2018-06-08T17:59:31Z")
Anyone who identifies as whichever gender should be allowed to compete in whichever gender’s sport they wish to compete. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/4 "2018-06-08T18:53:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Anyone who identifies as whichever gender should be allowed to compete in whichever gender’s sport they wish to compete. With absolutely no constraints? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/5 "2018-06-08T18:57:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Anyone who identifies as whichever gender should be allowed to compete in whichever gender’s sport they wish to compete. That would only go one way - FtM people aren’t going to succeed in male sports at any level. I wouldn’t put it past China or North Korea to simply declare that their B teams all identify as female-gendered, for the duration of the competition. Which kind of defeats the purpose of gender divisions in sports. FWIW, [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports) are the rules for transgender athletes in the Olympics. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/6 "2018-06-08T19:37:08Z")
I voted “depends” as the spectrum of trans situations is wide and I can certainly imagine situations where it makes little difference and confers little advantage. I can also envisage situations where it very much will. I don’t know how to police it and don’t know of any easy way to draw a line. If you have sports with entry criteria that are simply defined and measurable then fine, everyone knows where they are. Trouble is, “woman” is not easily measurable. That leaves us in an uncomfortable situation and I’m not sure how it gets fixed or even whether it can. For athletes such as Caster Semenya, this leaves them in a very awkward situation. Through no fault of their own they find themselves caught up in a situation that I just don’t think can be solved to everyone’s satisfaction ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/7 "2018-06-08T19:49:30Z")
The point of women’s sports is to set up a protected space where innate biological differences are mitigated. Trans people typically have those innate biological differences, so would seem to me to be ineligible. It defeats the purpose of women’s sports which is to encourage women to be involved in sporting events even though they are rarely competitive in an open sport format. If you allow trans people to compete, then you have simply invented a new sport specifically for trans people and women are once again discouraged from participating. When you also tie in the fact that scholarships are tied to athletic events and Title IX requires equal representation of scholarship opportunities, it makes sense for nearly every single boy in a non-revenue sport to become ‘trans’ in order to best position themselves for financial gain and how exactly could you police that? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/8 "2018-06-08T19:54:18Z")
No. Like it or not men tend to be better at many forms of athletics than women. The world records for various athletic events tend to be higher for men than for women. There is a reason that many world records are divided into gender and weight class. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/9 "2018-06-08T19:59:58Z")
A truly transgendered woman has completed the process and is estrogen fueled, so to speak. I think allowing her to compete is fine. In the case of someone who is still in transition and has a significant level of testosterone, that would give her an unfair advantage. Years ago, a transgendered person named Dr. Rene Richards competed on the WTA tour, and there was a lot of criticism about letting her do so. Her results on the tour were that of a mediocre female player and nothing more. In her case, it was much ado about nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/10 "2018-06-08T20:00:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > With absolutely no constraints? No constraints. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/11 "2018-06-08T20:05:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Anyone who identifies as whichever gender should be allowed to compete in whichever gender’s sport they wish to compete. Gonna be a lot of women named “Dave” winning weightlifting competitions. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/12 "2018-06-08T20:11:30Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > A truly transgendered woman has completed the process and is estrogen fueled, so to speak. I think allowing her to compete is fine. In the case of someone who is still in transition and has a significant level of testosterone, that would give her an unfair advantage. > > Years ago, a transgendered person named Dr. Rene Richards competed on the WTA tour, and there was a lot of criticism about letting her do so. Her results on the tour were that of a mediocre female player and nothing more. In her case, it was much ado about nothing. I don’t want to throw water on your claim, but Rene Richards was ranked 20 in 1979. Rene was 45-years-old at the time. To put that in perspective, very few women are playing at the age of 45, but Martina Navratilova who is arguably one of the- if not the- greatest players of all time was ranked 376 at the age of 47 (she was only playing doubles when she was 45 and thus unranked). There are currently no over-40 year old women in the top 750 ranked. The oldest is 39 year old Patty Schnyder at 146. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/13 "2018-06-08T20:13:55Z")
Before transition treatment? No. During transition treatment? No. But, _after_ transition - that is, a significant period of time living with a hormone mix typical of ciswomen - a transwoman is going to lose muscle mass and strength and her center of gravity will change. She won’t lose her height - she is, after all, more likely to be of average cismale height than cisfemale height - but the reduced muscle mass and changed balance might well counter-act any lingering advantage gained from that height. (see Renee Richards, mentioned above) Also, in a sport where height is an advantage the transwoman is likely to be competing against ciswomen of greater than average height, wiping out any advantage there, and if _lack_ of height is an advantage than the transwoman might actually be at a disadvantage. I think after a few years it’s not going to make much if any difference. Exactly how long that interval between transition and competing as a woman needs to be I can’t say, I’m not an expert on these things. If the transwoman went through a complete transition _prior_ to experiencing male puberty then definitely she should compete as a woman as all those male advantages kick in during male puberty and, never having had that, I don’t see where she’d have any advantage over a ciswoman. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/14 "2018-06-08T20:18:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > No constraints. Well, I think that’s a very bad idea then. What a person is is more complicated than a mere declaration. We are at the point that in some venues people can’t discuss real, biological issues without being shouted down with accusations of hate speech. Now, I think every person should have an opportunity to compete in fair sports. I’m not sure the current method is the most fair. I’d rather see weight and gender divisions eliminated than allow people to self identify for the purpose of sport. A prime Mike Tyson declaring himself a female and fighting women would be murder. As an example. Almost literally murder. That’s not fair nor just. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/15 "2018-06-08T20:30:05Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > A truly transgendered woman has completed the process and is estrogen fueled, so to speak. I think allowing her to compete is fine. In the case of someone who is still in transition and has a significant level of testosterone, that would give her an unfair advantage. > > Years ago, a transgendered person named Dr. Rene Richards competed on the WTA tour, and there was a lot of criticism about letting her do so. Her results on the tour were that of a mediocre female player and nothing more. In her case, it was much ado about nothing. For running at least, wouldn’t there be an advantage to not having formed a female pelvis? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/16 "2018-06-08T20:33:56Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > A truly transgendered woman has completed the process and is estrogen fueled, so to speak. I think allowing her to compete is fine. In the case of someone who is still in transition and has a significant level of testosterone, that would give her an unfair advantage. > > Years ago, a transgendered person named Dr. Rene Richards competed on the WTA tour, and there was a lot of criticism about letting her do so. Her results on the tour were that of a mediocre female player and nothing more. In her case, it was much ado about nothing. I would class Dr. Richards’ results as better than mediocre. > [@](#): > > Richards played professionally from 1977 to 1981 when she retired at age 47.[3][4][15] She was ranked as high as 20th overall (in February 1979), and her highest ranking at the end of a year was 22nd (in 1977). Her first professional event as a female was the 1977 US Open. Her greatest successes on court were reaching the doubles final at her first U.S. Open in 1977, with Betty Ann Grubb Stuart—the pair lost a close match to Martina Navratilova and Betty Stöve—and winning the 35-and-over women’s singles. Richards was twice a semifinalist in mixed doubles (with Ilie Năstase) at the U.S. Open. In 1979, she defeated Nancy Richey for the 35 and over singles title at the U.S. Open. Richards posted wins over Hana Mandlíková, Sylvia Hanika, Virginia Ruzici, and Pam Shriver. She later coached Navratilova to two Wimbledon wins and was inducted into the USTA Eastern Tennis Hall of Fame in 2000.[18] On August 2, 2013, Richards was among the first class of inductees into the National Gay and Lesbian Sports Hall of Fame.[19] > > Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying “Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.”[20][21] [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/17 "2018-06-08T20:52:48Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > No. Like it or not men tend to be better at many forms of athletics than women. The world records for various athletic events tend to be higher for men than for women. In some sports the difference is huge: > [@](#): > > **No. 203 sweeps Williams** > > At the height of the Williams boom in 1998, an unofficial game took place in Australia after Serena and Venus claimed that no male player outside the top 200 could beat them. > > Up stepped a German known as Karsten Braasch who was ranked 203rd in the world and after first beating Serena 6-1, he then disposed of Venus 6-2. > > “I didn’t know it would be that difficult. I played shots that would have been winners on the women’s circuit and he got to them very easily,” said Serena. > > “They wouldn’t have had a chance against anyone inside the top 500 because today I played like someone ranked 600th to keep it fun,” was Braasch’s assessment. > > SOURCE: [http://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468aeb99218b464c.html](http://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468aeb99218b464c.html) ---
**Author:** ![StraightTalk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straighttalk/32/9982_2.png) [@StraightTalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StraightTalk)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/18 "2018-06-08T20:57:09Z")
I’m reminded of this athlete I read about: [Transgender 'girl' track star with mustache crushes female competitors](http://www.wnd.com/2017/06/transgender-girl-track-star-with-mustache-crushes-female-competitors/) No hormone treatments. No surgeries. Said s/he identified as a girl so was permitted on the girls track team. Perhaps we need additional categories. Born male and still male. Born female and still female. Born male and now identifies as female. Born female and now identifies as male. I can see curling not being split by gender. But track? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/19 "2018-06-08T22:00:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Anyone who identifies as whichever gender should be allowed to compete in whichever gender’s sport they wish to compete. If you’re going to do that just get rid of gender sports altogether. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/20 "2018-06-08T22:28:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Before transition treatment? No. > > During transition treatment? No. > > But, _after_ transition - that is, a significant period of time living with a hormone mix typical of ciswomen - a transwoman is going to lose muscle mass and strength and her center of gravity will change. She won’t lose her height - she is, after all, more likely to be of average cismale height than cisfemale height - but the reduced muscle mass and changed balance might well counter-act any lingering advantage gained from that height. (see Renee Richards, mentioned above) Also, in a sport where height is an advantage the transwoman is likely to be competing against ciswomen of greater than average height, wiping out any advantage there, and if _lack_ of height is an advantage than the transwoman might actually be at a disadvantage. I think after a few years it’s not going to make much if any difference. Exactly how long that interval between transition and competing as a woman needs to be I can’t say, I’m not an expert on these things. > > If the transwoman went through a complete transition _prior_ to experiencing male puberty then definitely she should compete as a woman as all those male advantages kick in during male puberty and, never having had that, I don’t see where she’d have any advantage over a ciswoman. I agree with the transitioning pre-puberty, but post puberty? No way. What I know is based on memory so bear with me. Post puberty, men have denser bone structure, height, and muscle memory – not just muscle actions, but growing muscle as well. They have height and weight and while they are likely to play against female athletes who are bigger and taller as well, the averages don’t align, the men are going to be on average bigger than the female average. Additionally, it takes like what 10-15 years for hormonal therapy to even things out? These athletes are going into competition as soon as they recover. They are going to recover like a male and still have the testosterone levels, albeit at a reduced rate, but still a clear advantage over natural females (assuming that the testosterone blockers are even that effective). Speaking of testosterone, one of the reasons men and women think differently is because of the amount of testosterone raging through our bodies. Imo, the aggression mentality helps in sports, and combined with the muscle memory it becomes a significant advantage. Conversely, women who go through female puberty don’t have nearly as dense bones as men, they’re skeletal mass and shape is different (less conducive to sports/athletics) from the fact they have child bearing hips, they don’t have the ligament strength. Men do not have this and is not changed at all during the sexual re-assignment surgery. Men have larger lung and heart capacity, something not found on average vs females. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696.md?page=2)