# Should trans women be allowed to compete with women in sports. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696 "2018-06-08T16:34:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/41 "2018-06-09T14:21:34Z")
Top level sports happen at the narrow tails of the bell curves. Men and women mostly overlap in all characteristics, but at the extremes of strongest and fastest the dominance of those growing up biologically male is complete. If there was no protected category for women in sports there is hardly any sport where you’d see a woman qualify at the international level, and they’d be rare at the national level. Of course not every transgender woman would be a top athlete, but there is little doubt they would on average rank higher than the biological females in most sports and that it would cause resentment! ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/42 "2018-06-09T14:42:02Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > The truth is that many elite athletes are statistical outliers anyway. They may have naturally larger frames and stronger muscles and female athletes may have naturally higher levels of testosterone yet we don’t ban athletes who are abnormally tall from playing basketball. My solution would be to get rid of the gender requirements and set androgen levels, just like they use weight classes. While I don’t have all the details (you would have to allow for cases like testicular feminization where the testosterone levels are high but there are no receptors) I can see sports being divided into “low androgen”. “moderate androgen” and “high androgen” classes and athletes would compete with those at similar levels. Not a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/43 "2018-06-09T15:02:42Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > The truth is that many elite athletes are statistical outliers anyway. They may have naturally larger frames and stronger muscles and female athletes may have naturally higher levels of testosterone yet we don’t ban athletes who are abnormally tall from playing basketball. My solution would be to get rid of the gender requirements and set androgen levels, just like they use weight classes. While I don’t have all the details (you would have to allow for cases like testicular feminization where the testosterone levels are high but there are no receptors) I can see sports being divided into “low androgen”. “moderate androgen” and “high androgen” classes and athletes would compete with those at similar levels. It is a solution with merit but is measuring an accurate androgen level possible? You already mention a medical condition that needs to taken into consideration and I wonder how many more complicating factors there are. It could end up just as complicated as the gender segregation. And what would the sporting landscape look like in a world on non-gender segregation? Personally I have no problem with lower tier athletes and less popular competitions getting less money if that is what the market demands. (not popular I know) but the segregation suggested above would seem to set up a very clear hierarchy in which “women” (in the way we typically understand it now) would often be in the lowest tier and any case for equal pay would might be much harder to make and I’m not sure that would be a popular outcome. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/44 "2018-06-09T15:23:34Z")
I’m curious to know whether there are hordes of people who believe that the enticing smell of female athletic success will prompt a large portion of the athletic male population to identify as transgender and then seek to participate as women athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/45 "2018-06-09T15:38:08Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I think we need to find sports that are competitive cross-gender and promote those more. Trouble is, the number of sports in which women can compete roughly equally to men is close to zero. (Is there any exception at all?) You mention climbing and volleyball. Volleyball is a sport in which height, reach, speed, jumping ability and strength are important, so at any elite level, men’s skill vastly exceeds women’s. You can include women by mandating that a team contain some - but the chance that any elite team would have one solely on merit is vanishingly small. The difference between mean and women in climbing is probably not as large as in volleyball - strength certainly matters, but it’s mostly strength/weight ratio, in which elite women rank well. But the differences between men’s and women’s achievement are still large. And there’s a only small amount of organized competition in this sport, almost all of it individual (and of course women compete separately from men). ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/46 "2018-06-09T15:40:34Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’m curious to know whether there are hordes of people who believe that the enticing smell of female athletic success will prompt a large portion of the athletic male population to identify as transgender and then seek to participate as women athletes. Only a tiny portion would have a profound effect. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/47 "2018-06-09T15:57:00Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I get that. But if pretty numb, why not all the way, and declare the current men’s team to just be “the team”, and new players of any type are welcome to compete for a spot? I’ve had the same proposal. Problem is you probably wouldn’t have much women’s participation until like tier 9 or tier 10 or lower of sport leagues. That’s not necessarily a very encouraging sight for girls and women. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/48 "2018-06-09T16:04:20Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’m curious to know whether there are hordes of people who believe that the enticing smell of female athletic success will prompt a large portion of the athletic male population to identify as transgender and then seek to participate as women athletes. There would be some, in my opinion, if there were absolutely no boundaries as to who you identify as. If all you need to do is say “I feel like I am female” and then you instantly become a top competitor without a need for surgery, then that would prompt a lot of people to falsely claim to be a different gender than what they are. It’s the money. There are a lot more distasteful things people do for money than simply lying about their brains gender. Even if they _weren’t_ lying and were one of those trans people who opt to not physically transition, they’d still have an advantage, otherwise, why have gendered sports at all? Now, if playing in the female category requires surgery and/or hormones, then very few people would falsely claim this just for fame and money, which isn’t to say no one would. But physically transitioning when you are cisgendered would cause gender dysphoria just as much as not transitioning when you are trans, so it wouldn’t be worth it to most athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/49 "2018-06-09T16:26:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Before transition treatment? No. > > During transition treatment? No. But being trans doesn’t require ‘treatment’. Some people who identify as trans opt to just live as the gender they identify as. No meds to alter hormones, no surgery. Imagine the uproar if we require them to get treatment they don’t want, in order to qualify for a sports competition. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/50 "2018-06-09T16:44:44Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > … the number of sports in which women can compete roughly equally to men is close to zero. (Is there any exception at all?) Some Googling suggests that equestrian events provide an exception. But even here, it seems to be the case that men succeed at a rate out of proportion to their rate of participation. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/51 "2018-06-09T18:24:22Z")
My own bias is that ALL gender dysphoria is a product of faulty thinking on the part of the person experiencing the dysphoria - though they are very likely to have picked up that thinking from others or been coerced into it. I think when people completely stop buying the false notion that it feels any certain way to be a man or any certain way to be a woman, the surgery and hormones (and controversy) will evaporate. I got called “fag” sometimes in school though I’m straight, and honestly I can see why - but I’m just me. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/52 "2018-06-09T20:29:17Z")
My bias is that all gender dysphoria is a product of faulty thinking on the part of the species as a whole. For lots of complicated reasons, we collectively came to take a set of generalizations about each of the two biological sexes (some of which aren’t even accurate as generalizations) and impose them as rigid standards, definitional standards, which became identities. Expected identities, projected identities, internalized identities. We call that gender. I got called “fag” too and I like you (i.e., **DavidwithanR** ) I can see why. My sex is a mismatch for my gender (by the above definition of gender). ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/53 "2018-06-09T22:31:08Z")
It is extremely difficult to totally undo the effects of androgens once they have been exerted. Ask any woman with PCOS. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/54 "2018-06-09T22:53:25Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > My own bias is that ALL gender dysphoria is a product of faulty thinking on the part of the person experiencing the dysphoria - though they are very likely to have picked up that thinking from others or been coerced into it. I think when people completely stop buying the false notion that it feels any certain way to be a man or any certain way to be a woman, the surgery and hormones (and controversy) will evaporate. I got called “fag” sometimes in school though I’m straight, and honestly I can see why - but I’m just me. If it’s all a matter of how one perceives what “being a man” or “being a woman” means, wouldn’t there be a lot of post-transition trans people who are disappointed? Because, after all, actually being, say, a woman wouldn’t feel like that person’s “false notion” of what it feels like to be a woman. Right? Isn’t gender dysphoria the sense that one’s actual gender doesn’t match one’s physical sex characteristics? In other words, isn’t the sense of _being_ a female–not just wanting to be what one thinks a female feels like–already present? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/55 "2018-06-09T22:54:37Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > But being trans doesn’t require ‘treatment’. Some people who identify as trans opt to just live as the gender they identify as. No meds to alter hormones, no surgery. Imagine the uproar if we require them to get treatment they don’t want, in order to qualify for a sports competition. Understood. Trans people are in no way obligated to have surgery or hormones. But if they are in a biologically male body then they have to compete in men’s sports. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/56 "2018-06-09T23:19:08Z")
The reason we separate men and women sports is because men’s bodies are capable of higher performance that women just shouldn’t be forced to compete against. The body is the important thing here, if you have a male body you compete against males. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/57 "2018-06-10T01:15:18Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > If it’s all a matter of how one perceives what “being a man” or “being a woman” means, wouldn’t there be a lot of post-transition trans people who are disappointed? Because, after all, actually being, say, a woman wouldn’t feel like that person’s “false notion” of what it feels like to be a woman. Right? From the high suicide rate I imagine that there are a lot of people who find that changing their bodies didn’t help them feel better about themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/58 "2018-06-10T01:22:37Z")
For sports purposes, the gender distinctions of male & female were defined before modern times. Excluded, since it wasn’t known to exist, were trans-persons and drug-enhanced performance. If a third sex were discovered, would it be reasonable to include it in male or female categories? I think not. So we need another category or two. Male & female aren’t enough nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/59 "2018-06-10T02:07:06Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > From the high suicide rate I imagine that there are a lot of people who find that changing their bodies didn’t help them feel better about themselves. Sadly, many people mis-identify the cause of their unhappiness. It’s an unfortunate human tendency to think “If only _this_ were different, everything would be all right”. Yet some people find things markedly improved in their lives, once they’ve made their particular change. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696/60 "2018-06-10T06:17:37Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > If it’s all a matter of how one perceives what “being a man” or “being a woman” means, wouldn’t there be a lot of post-transition trans people who are disappointed? Because, after all, actually being, say, a woman wouldn’t feel like that person’s “false notion” of what it feels like to be a woman. Right? I was referring to the fact (not opinion) that being a man includes feeling the way Bruce Jenner felt and not having to decide to “identify as” (which equals “pretend to be”) a woman. That a man who has what he mistakenly interprets as female characteristics is still just a man. > [@](#): > > Isn’t gender dysphoria the sense that one’s actual gender doesn’t match one’s physical sex characteristics? In other words, isn’t the sense of _being_ a female–not just wanting to be what one thinks a female feels like–already present? No. Gender dysphoria is the completely mistaken sense that one’s physical sex is unable to accommodate one’s sense of self. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trans-women-be-allowed-to-compete-with-women-in-sports/815696.md?page=4)