Should transgendered people be allowed to marry? And have they really changed their gender?

[Clothahump]

@Snowboarder_Bo

1. Should transgendered people be allowed to marry?
2. Are transgendered people really the sex they were born or have they effectively “changed” their gender?

1. I don’t think they are forbidden to marry now.

2. No, they have not changed their gender. No amount of surgery can do that. You run a blood test on them, they’re gonna come back as XX or XY just like they did on the day of their birth.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Clothahump

1. I don’t think they are forbidden to marry now.

Well, that would be you being wrong.

[

The Defense of Marriage Act (Pub.L. 104-199, 110 Stat. 2419, enacted September 21, 1996, 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C) is a United States federal law signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996 whereby the federal government defines marriage as a legal union between one man and one woman. Under the law, also known as DOMA, no state (or other political subdivision within the United States) may be required to recognize as a marriage a same-sex relationship considered a marriage in another state. The law passed both houses of Congress by large majorities.

](Defense of Marriage Act - Wikipedia)

A majority of the states, including those that have some benefits for same-sex relationships, have restricted recognition of marriage to unions of one man and one woman in state law, have some law defining marriage as such, or have an amendment to their state constitution to that effect. As of April 2009, 29 states have enacted constitutional amendments defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman, and another 13 states have statutory bans, including Maine, which approved a same-sex marriage law that was repealed by referendum in the United States general elections, 2009.

Clearly, if being transgendered does not actually change the sex of a person, they cannot marry another male or another female. A MtF transgender could marry a FtM transgender, or just marry a female, but a MtF transgender cannot legally marry a man.

In the case I quoted in the OP, Texas also restricts the rights of transgendered people to marry, unless they get a judge to approve it. And the legislation currently under debate there would remove the ability of judges to intervene.

[Der_Trihs]

@Clothahump

2. No, they have not changed their gender. No amount of surgery can do that. You run a blood test on them, they’re gonna come back as XX or XY just like they did on the day of their birth.

Genes aren’t gender though. For example, someone born with XY genes and androgen insensitivity will be born feminine, grow up looking female, think like a female, act like a female - it’s kind of silly to insist she isn’t a woman (and will probably seriously piss her off). Gender identity is in the brain, not “XY” or “XX”; there’s a long developmental path from genes to body that can go quirky in all sorts of ways.

[Polycarp]

@TriPolar

I have no problem with a simple all-in-one contract for people to sign when they engage in the contractual obligations that we have traditionally associated with marriage.

And how do you propose to compel third parties to abide by such contracts, as they are now statutorily required to do with state-recognized marriages? E.g, the Intensive Care area of a hospital, both for visitation and for medical decisions? The school district, for parenting decisions on children? The IRS on joint filing status. There are something like 1600 examples that could be listed here. BTW, taking each of them to court is not a valid answer, for reasons that should be obvious.

[Chronos]

Genes aren’t gender though. For example, someone born with XY genes and androgen insensitivity will be born feminine, grow up looking female, think like a female, act like a female - it’s kind of silly to insist she isn’t a woman (and will probably seriously piss her off). Gender identity is in the brain, not “XY” or “XX”; there’s a long developmental path from genes to body that can go quirky in all sorts of ways.

Or take it even further: Suppose we have a person born with XY chromosomes and androgen-insensitivity, and who therefore grows up with a female body, but who mentally self-identifies as male. That person grows up, and possibly knowing es karotype and possibly not, seeks out a surgeon for sex-reassignment surgery. We now have someone who was legally regarded as female at birth, and presumably remains so, but who now has (surgically-produced) male organs and an XY karotype.