# Should transwomen be allowed in women's prisons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830 "2023-02-15T13:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/101 "2023-02-17T14:27:43Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Indeed, it goes both ways. And as we are in the nature vs. nurture territory: Do you happen to know whether a bonobo as ever been raised by a chimp society (or vice versa) and what kind of behaviour it showed afterwards? My guess would be that a chimp raised in bonobo society still behaves as a chimp, because being aggressive is easier in a peaceful society, while a bonobo raised in a chimp society would rather adopt the chimp pattern of behaviour, because being peaceful on a violent society sucks. That’s an interesting question that doesn’t have a simple answer, because I don’t think an experiment like having chimps raise bonobos or vise versa (especially in the wild, since captive ape groups are a whole other kettle of fish anyways, especially until recent times). But there ARE some lines of evidence we can look at. First, we know that chimps and bonobos can adopt the cultures of other apes they are raised by, because they adopt the culture of humans when raised by humans. That doesn’t mean they’re particularly well adjusted, but chimps raised by humans often identify themselves more with humans than with other apes. They can speak sign language, wear clothes, enjoy things like watching TV or caring for pets (cats, dogs), express discomfort around other apes, and even sometimes express sexual attraction towards humans rather than apes. So, if a developing chimp’s social structure is flexible enough to adopt human ways, surely chimps could adopt bonobo ways as well? Further, while ape groups in captivity are a poor analogue for ape groups in the wild (even the largest zoos cannot facilitate the sort of fission-fusion group dynamics that take place in the wild, for example, and these splits and merges are a catalyst for the violent/non-violent behavior of chimps/bonobos) there are a handful of successful mixed chimp-bonobo groups, for what that is worth. Finally, we must consider how chimps and bonobos got this way to begin with. About 2 million years ago, an ancestral population of apes had their territory split by the Congo River; these populations would evolve into chimpanzees and bonobos. Why did chimps and bonobos develop differently? One theory is that the chimps to the north had to deal with gorillas, who compete with them for many of the same resources. But gorillas didn’t live south of the Congo, and so the bonobos did not face this competition. In a world of scarce resources, the most vicious chimpanzee males - those who controlled their troop with an iron fist, who killed the young of other males, and who viciously fought other troops for terrotory - these chimps led successful troops that survived. Meanwhile, in the south, the bonobos did not find resources scarce. The idea that bonobos are entirely peaceful is a mistaken one - they are nearly as dangerous as a chimp when angered. But bonobos rarely choose violence in confrontations with other troops. It is possible that this behavior evolved in response to more easily available resources, where the successful troops where the ones that didn’t worry so much about paternal descent, where males and females cooperatively care for all the young in a group. Obviously, 1.8 million years is a long time for bonobo and chimp cultures to diverge. This has even led to some physical changes; chimpanzees are much more sexually dimorphic, with larger males who possess enormous canines. Bonobos have smaller teeth, larger heads and eyes relative to their body, little difference between males and females… traits they share with domesticated animals. And, I might note, with us. Here’s the point. The ancestors of chimpanzees and bonobos were indistinguishable. Maybe they were more chimp-like, maybe more bonobo like - it’s hard to tell, especially because we have almost no fossil remains at all from either species. But they ended up on opposite sides of a river, and diverged in behavior from there. In other words, chimpanzees aren’t violent because they have large males with big teeth; they evolved those physical traits because their environment rewarded societies that exhibited heightened aggression, and these traits were then selected for accordingly. Same thing with the bonobos. Their environment rewarded cooperative groups, which in turn rewarded individuals with bodies that facilitated this behavior. > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > We are talking about behaviour in jail, an environment designed to be stressful. I would argue that if you’re designing jail to be stressful, you’re doing it wrong. Yes, there are stress factors inherent in being held captive in the company of other criminals; but jails should be built with the goal of mitigating this to the greatest possible extent. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/102 "2023-02-17T14:46:05Z")
Interesting, Babale. Some feminist theorists have posited patriarchy as a response to scarcity of resources and the resulting impetus towards tight control as highest social priority, and feminism as a reaction to the gradual shift to comfortable plentitude. (e.g., Elizabeth Fisher, Marilyn French). ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/103 "2023-02-17T15:26:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Trans women have been proven less likely to commit rape than cisgender women. So any argument that is based on assuming that trans women would be the bigger threat to female prisoner than the cisgender women in that prison can be ignored. Do you have a link to the study that supports that? Written evidence provided to a [UK parliamentary comittee](https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/) regarding the official figures for transgender sex offenders in prison offers a slightly different picture. (though speaking to a broader range of offences than just rape) > MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis). Those stats in context > Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent > official count of transgender prisoners): > 76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9% > 125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3% > 13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8% Now the big issue with those figures is that it does not count sex-offending prisoners who have obtained a GRC (gender recognition certificate) a ruling that, at least for the time being, requires a substantial effort on behalf of the trans person to demonstrate their commitment to living as their chosen gender. As it stands that data just isn’t collected. The data above clearly does seem to show a far higher rate of sex offending amongst males who _self-identify_ as transgender and this was one of the main concerns raised by opponents of the recent changes to the Scottish Gender Recognition reform bill. The worry was that, without the proper safeguards and with the requirements for a GRC diluted to the point that self-identification was pretty much all that was required, you could have had all those sex-offending, self-identifying transgender males placed in a female prison. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/104 "2023-02-17T17:12:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I would argue that if you’re designing jail to be stressful, you’re doing it wrong. Yes, there are stress factors inherent in being held captive in the company of other criminals; but jails should be built with the goal of mitigating this to the greatest possible extent. Yes, they should, but they are not. And I believe the OP asked whether transwomen should be allowed in women’s prisons because of the feeling that this would cause distress to one group if it was allowed and to another if it was not. The question being: which group deserves more protection. Assuming there is a universal answer for that. I think this discussion has not reached an agreement yet. Concerning the bonobos and the chimps I am afraid continuing this debate here would be a hijack, so I found an old thread to follow that theme: [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/common-chimp-bonobo-human-hybrids/379823). I’ll give it a bump. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/105 "2023-02-17T20:27:57Z")
One reason that men and women are housed separately is to avoid pregnancies from sexual relationships. Lots of inmates have consensual sexual relationships while in prison. I believe that’s against the rules in most prisons, but it happens all the time. If all the inmates have the same genitalia, no big deal. But if they have opposite genitalia, then pregnancies are a very predicable and certain outcome. There’s no way that prisons are going to be setup such that they have to deal with the prisoners getting pregnant all the time. It seems like this would end up having prisons segregated into areas according to which sex organs the inmates had. Men’s prisons would have one area for men with penises and another area for men with vaginas. And vice-versa for women’s prisons. It allows personal self-identification without the court having to decide if a trans gender person is trans enough to go to their preferred gender prison. If someone says they are gender A, they go to the prison for gender A and are housed with the inmates at that prison with the same genitalia. I know this sounds weird, but it solves a lot of issues and bypasses a lot of social pushback. However this issue gets resolved, I’m certain that avoiding inmate pregnancies will be a core aspect of the solution. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/106 "2023-02-17T21:24:03Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > However this issue gets resolved, I’m certain that avoiding inmate pregnancies will be a core aspect of the solution. This is something I was thinking about as well. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/107 "2023-02-17T22:55:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Now the big issue with those figures …this isn’t the big issue with the figures. The link is being characterised as “written evidence”, when the much better characterization here would be as “we weren’t prepared at the time of our submission and said things that we were unable to back up, so we will go away and do our homework…” This isn’t a peer reviewed report. It was prepared and submitted by Professor Rosa Freedman, Professor Kathleen Stock, and Professor Alice Sullivan, all prominent gender critical activist who are all **strong proponents for trans-exclusionary practices in all aspects of life,** not just in prisons. This is very important context. So background on how the submission came to light. > [@Medium Blog](#): > > > **Nicola Richards** : Would you accept, however, that to make the assumption that these are predatory males and predatory trans women has quite a damaging effect without robust data, as you have pointed to without the stats? > > > > **Professor Freedman** : You have misunderstood. I said most trans individuals are not predatory, but there will be predatory males. We have the data. We have the rapes in prisons, not just in this country but in Ireland, Denmark and elsewhere. We know that there are predatory males. You are pushing me on this and I have told you that there is data under Swedish studies, so now it feels like you are accusing me of lying. > > > > **Nicola Richards** : No, it is just this is a Select Committee. It would be helpful to have had those statistics, but we will look out for them. > > > > **Professor Freedman** : I can send them. > > Because they had not brought statistics to support their claims, the academics were invited to send in their evidence following the meeting and, on 12th January 2021, they submitted [written evidence to the Committee](https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/). > **[Academics’ anti-transgender submission to Parliament plagiarised?](https://terfiles.medium.com/academics-anti-transgender-submission-to-parliament-plagiarised-368f1bb7221)** > > Potential plagiarism may bring into question the supposed expertise of Gender Critical academics, the seriousness with which they approach… So additional context: Freedman & Co presented oral evidence to the Women and Equalities Select Committee, were asked to support the claim that “predatory males and how the same statistics of abuse on women carry over from males to trans women”, they didn’t actually have that data available at the time, which is why the made this submission. The medium post points out that it appears that large portions of the submission are likely plagiarized, and that the authors of the Swedish study stated: > [@medium blog](#): > > [the study’s data is often misrepresented by people to support spurious claims about trans people](https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm): for instance, the claim that trans women commit the same types of crime as cis (i.e., non-trans) men (particularly with the inference that trans women are likely to sexually assault cis women). As the summary at the end of the interview with Dhejne emphasises, “No, the study does not prove that trans women are rapists or likely to be rapists. […] No, the study does not prove that trans women … were convicted of the same types of crime as cis men”. As for the MOJ data: I’m having a difficult time parsing the raw data provided by the MOJ with the data presented to the select committee. For example this: > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. Here’s a screenshot from the raw data: [![](https://i.ibb.co/DLpp7PL/Screenshot-2023-02-18-at-11-18-45-AM.png) ](https://i.ibb.co/DLpp7PL/Screenshot-2023-02-18-at-11-18-45-AM.png) The 76 figure, at least to my eyes, shows the total amount of transgender prisoners in male establishments that have been sentenced for one or more sexual offences. The 129 figure is a snapshot of the total transgender prisoners in male establishments in a specific time-frame (March/April 2019) I don’t think the two numbers are associated with each other. I think Freedman & Co are deliberately conflating the two for the purposes of furthering their agenda. I’m more than happy to be corrected on this. But all of the statistics have been spun out of this basic misunderstanding of what the MOJ numbers actually said IMHO. Whether that was accidental or deliberate, I’ll leave to the readers to decide. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > it does not count sex-offending prisoners who have obtained a GRC (gender recognition certificate) a ruling that, at least for the time being, requires a substantial effort on behalf of the trans person to demonstrate their commitment to living as their chosen gender. This actually isn’t relevant to any discussion about “should transwomen be allowed in womens prisons” for a couple of reasons: firstly, while the UK was used as a frame for this thread, it isn’t the _focus_ of the thread. And secondly: **the GRC has nothing to do with prisons**. That was deliberate disinformation put out there by gender critical activists. It has literally nothing to do with this discussion, and certainly isn’t relevant to the numbers produced by the MOJ. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/108 "2023-02-17T23:11:28Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There’s no way that prisons are going to be setup such that they have to deal with the prisoners getting pregnant all the time. …if prisons can cope with all the sexual assault that is going on all the time from prison guards, then they can cope with a statistical handful of transgender prisoners. Out of the hundreds of problems with the industrial prison complex as it is today, “prisoners getting pregnant all the time” because of the mere existence of transgender people is probably not that high in the priority list. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/109 "2023-02-17T23:42:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if prisons can cope with all the sexual assault that is going on all the time from prison guards, then they can cope with a statistical handful of transgender prisoners. Out of the hundreds of problems with the industrial prison complex as it is today, “prisoners getting pregnant all the time” because of the mere existence of transgender people is probably not that high in the priority list. …and just further to this, if the claim is that: > [@filmore](#): > > Lots of inmates have consensual sexual relationships while in prison. I believe that’s against the rules in most prisons, but it happens all the time. If the claim is that this happens all the time, and it is against the rules but prison management aren’t enforcing those rules, and if the sex is consensual, then the solution here would be making _birth control_ easily available, not segregation. If pregnancy is the concern, the year is 2023, and we have ways of dealing with that. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/110 "2023-02-18T00:53:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if prisons can cope with all the sexual assault that is going on all the time from prison guards, then they can cope with a statistical handful of transgender prisoners There may be a statistical handful of transgender prisoners now, but I don’t think it would stay that way if there weren’t any restrictions. I’m guessing the transgender prisoners in their preferred gender prison are people who have gone through extensive medical transitioning. But there are lots of transgender people who don’t medically transition. If anyone who identified as transgender got sent to their gender-preferred prison, I suspect there would be a lot more transgender prisoners in the system and they would be more statistically consistent with the transgender population in general. And that’s just the sincere transgender prisoners. There would be a lot of convicted men who would suddenly claim they were trans women just so they could go to a women’s prison. I would expect that nearly 100% of the convicted male defendants would suddenly come out as trans women during the sentencing phase of their trial. And regarding sex with guards, when it happens, the guard is removed from the prison. If cell mates were together 24/7 with nothing to do, there’s no way the system can prevent them from having sex. It would happen many times more often between cell mates than it does between guards and prisoners. Birth control could be made available, but there are still lots of complications with that. It doesn’t always work, they might not want to use it, they might actually want to get pregnant and have a baby, etc. Having inmates housed together who are capable of getting pregnant would mean that pregnancy would be a common occurrence. Perhaps an ideal prison system could technically handle that, but I can’t see how the American prison system would allow it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/111 "2023-02-18T01:16:56Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There may be a statistical handful of transgender prisoners now, but I don’t think it would stay that way if there weren’t any restrictions. …I don’t think anyone is suggesting no restrictions. But even if they were: why do you think it “wouldn’t stay that way?” What leads you to believe that? > [@filmore](#): > > I’m guessing the transgender prisoners in their preferred gender prison are people who have gone through extensive medical transitioning. Perhaps don’t guess. Go find the stats. > [@filmore](#): > > If anyone who identified as transgender got sent to their gender-preferred prison, I suspect there would be a lot more transgender prisoners in the system and they would be more statistically consistent with the transgender population in general. Can you quantify your suspicions at all? > [@filmore](#): > > There would be a lot of convicted men who would suddenly claim they were trans women just so they could go to a women’s prison. And you are basing this on what exactly? (Assuming that prisoners are subject to risk assesssments, as I have suggested) > [@filmore](#): > > I would expect that nearly 100% of the convicted male defendants would suddenly come out as trans women during the sentencing phase of their trial. 100% you say. Really. Fascinating. > [@filmore](#): > > And regarding sex with guards, when it happens, the guard is removed from the prison. In the extraordinarily rare occasions they get caught, the prisoner actually believed, and something actually gets done. What is more likely to happen is what happened with Jimmy Highsmith. The first tips about him were in 2010. He continued working until he was finally incarcerated for something in 2022. > [@filmore](#): > > If cell mates were together 24/7 with nothing to do, there’s no way the system can prevent them from having sex. This is as much of an issue in [men’s prisons](https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report1.html) as it is in womens prisons. Lets start with fixing that and not worrying too much about 100% of male prisoners deciding they are trans women. > [@filmore](#): > > It would happen many times more often between cell mates than it does between guards and prisoners. Assertion without evidence. > [@filmore](#): > > Birth control could be made available, but there are still lots of complications with that. It doesn’t always work, they might not want to use it, they might actually want to get pregnant and have a baby, etc. Birth control is one option. There are plenty more that we could look at before deciding that pregnancy is a valid reason to send all trans women to mens prisons. > [@filmore](#): > > Having inmates housed together who are capable of getting pregnant would mean that pregnancy would be a common occurrence. Having men in a position of power over incarcerated women is a thing that happens in prison all over the world. So if pregancy is a problem we should be starting there first. And you need to start bringing some data to the table. Can you quantify how often a “common occurrence” would be? > [@filmore](#): > > Perhaps an ideal prison system could technically handle that, but I can’t see how the American prison system would allow it. America incarcerates more people per capita than anywhere else in the [world](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country). [74% of them have not been convicted of a crime](https://www.csmonitor.com/Podcasts/Perception-Gaps/Season-2-Locked-Up/perception_gaps_s2_ep_01). If you were to release 50% of all the people currently incarcerated in some way or form in America right now you would still have **twice as many people locked up as they do in Australia per head of population**. So if you think the prison system in America would struggle to handle this, can I suggest you start by releasing everybody currently being held in pre-trial detention. That would be a decent start. And a much more pressing issue than this thing that appears to be completely made up based on unreasonable assumptions and zero presented evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/112 "2023-02-18T02:59:35Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There may be a statistical handful of transgender prisoners now, but I don’t think it would stay that way if there weren’t any restrictions. […] There would be a lot of convicted men who would suddenly claim they were trans women just so they could go to a women’s prison. Even if that prediction is accurate, ISTM it doesn’t really affect the question of whether people who identified and lived as transgender women before being convicted of a crime should be allowed in women’s prisons. Nobody, or at least a population statistically equivalent to nobody, is going to be voluntarily identifying and living as a transgender woman outside of prison just on the chance that they might get convicted of a crime and incarcerated, at which point they’d prefer to be in a women’s prison rather than a men’s. I think it’s a pretty safe bet that non-felons who identify and live as transgender women in their everyday lives, even if they’re not 100% “out” in all contexts, are sincere about their transgender identity. Unless they’re part of the tiny (and mostly mythical, AFAICT) subset of male sexual predators who deliberately misrepresent themselves as women in everyday life simply in order to (somehow) make it easier for them to prey on women. That latter category is what the “gender critical” types seem to be all terrified about, but as I said, I know of no evidence that such people actually exist in any significant numbers. If one of them does get caught preying and sent to prison, then of course they should be treated like any other convicted sexual predator who’s known to be a danger to fellow inmates, irrespective of what prison they end up in. Other convicts who have a history of identifying and living as transgender women in everyday life should be sent to women’s prisons; I’ve seen no persuasive evidence that they pose any heightened risk to cisgender female inmates. As for these hypothesized masses of male convicts who are supposedly all going to proclaim themselves transgender as soon as the judge pronounces sentence, that’s a different issue. IANAL, but I think I’m okay with the position that sudden declarations of transgender identity can be screened more rigorously among people facing prison sentences than among the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/113 "2023-02-18T03:04:52Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I would expect that nearly 100% of the convicted male defendants would suddenly come out as trans women during the sentencing phase of their trial. Would _you?_ ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/114 "2023-02-18T08:18:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The 76 figure, at least to my eyes, shows the total amount of transgender prisoners in male establishments that have been sentenced for one or more sexual offences. The 129 figure is a snapshot of the total transgender prisoners in male establishments in a specific time-frame (March/April 2019) My understanding is that the 76 is a subset of sexual offenders out of that 129. I’m not sure how else those figures can be interpreted. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This actually isn’t relevant to any discussion about “should transwomen be allowed in womens prisons” for a couple of reasons: firstly, while the UK was used as a frame for this thread, it isn’t the _focus_ of the thread. And secondly: **the GRC has nothing to do with prisons**. Really? I assume you think that someone with a GRC is a woman and belongs in a woman’s prison correct? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/115 "2023-02-18T08:49:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > My understanding is that the 76 is a subset of sexual offenders out of that 129. I’m not sure how else those figures can be interpreted. …what you think and what the cite actually says are two different things. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Really? Yep. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I assume you think that someone with a GRC is a woman and belongs in a woman’s prison correct? I’ve made my position clear in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/116 "2023-02-18T09:04:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what you think and what the cite actually says are two different things. What I _think_ is that the figures state that of 129 males in prison who identify as transgender, 76 have a record of sexual offences. If you have an alternate interpretation I’d be interested in hearing it. One argument put forward against allowing transwomen in female prisons is the potential for male sex offenders claiming to be women and seeking a transfer. Two things are relevant here, the amount of people who might do that (for which these figures are relevant) and the ease with which an official GRC would be granted. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/117 "2023-02-18T09:14:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If you have an alternate interpretation I’d be interested in hearing it. …I’ve already given it. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > One argument put forward against allowing transwomen in female prisons is the potential for male sex offenders claiming to be women and seeking a transfer. Yep. And plenty of people, including me, have addressed that in this thread. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Two things are relevant here, the amount of people who might do that (for which these figures are relevant) And what would that amount be? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > and the ease with which an official GRC would be granted. The GRC isn’t relevant to prisons. It has nothing to do with prisons. And outside of places where GRC are issued, it isn’t relevant at all. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/118 "2023-02-18T09:51:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’ve already given it. I don’t think your expression of uncertainty over the figures counts as an alternative interpretation. You merely express that you don’t think the 76 and 129 figures are associated. Even though they are presented, in the unadulterated official figures, on the same table. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And what would that amount be? We can’t be sure, but we do know that there are at a minimum 76 transgender sex offenders in male prisons who could very easily apply for a legal change of gender and so bolster their case for a transfer to a female prison. The number who _would_ do so could be zero, or it could be far more. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The GRC isn’t relevant to prisons. It has nothing to do with prisons. And outside of places where GRC are issued, it isn’t relevant at all. If a GRC is a legal statement of legal gender and legal gender is a factor in where prisoners are housed then it seems prudent to consider a) how easy it is to achieve that legal standard b) the likelihood and number of people maliciously doing so The fact that a GRC is not a universal protocol is irrelevant, consider it a proxy for any official designation of legal sex. The same issues will exist pretty much anywhere in the world where this question is posed. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/119 "2023-02-18T09:52:14Z")
then theres this recent mess : > **[Two inmates impregnated by transgender inmate at all-women’s prison in New...](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/14/two-inmates-impregnated-transgender-inmate-all-wom/)** > > Two inmates at an all-women’s prison in New Jersey are pregnant after reportedly having sex with a transgender inmate. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/120 "2023-02-18T10:55:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You merely express that you don’t think the 76 and 129 figures are associated. Even though they are presented, in the unadulterated official figures, on the same table. …we don’t know what questions were asked. We don’t know the methodology. The figures are presented without context. What was the March/April 2019 data collection? Was that a snapshot of all offences to that date? If not, then why did the total number of transgender prisoners in male establishments sentenced for one or more sexual offence not have a date, but the Total number of transgender prisoners in male establishments in March/April 2019 did? Without the questions and the methodology we don’t know for sure. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > We can’t be sure, but we do know that there are at a minimum 76 transgender sex offenders in male prisons who could very easily apply for a legal change of gender and so bolster their case for a transfer to a female prison. We don’t know that, actually. For starters, those numbers are 3 years out of date. Secondly, I still don’t think your interpretation of the figures is accurate. Thirdly there would ultimately be a risk assessment which would _ultimately_ decide what are the best options for confinement. Fourthly: “easily apply for a change in gender” is an entirely subjective thing, and trans people I’ve spoken to have said processes like [this](https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/what-documents-you-need) are not easy to navigate at all. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If a GRC is a legal statement of legal gender and legal gender is a factor in where prisoners are housed One of multiple factors, and the prison service have already said that it won’t be the most important one. > [@Herald Scotland](#): > > Mr Kerr said that “applying risk assessments relative to how we care for and manage people in custody is a well-trodden path for the Scottish Prison Service”. > > He added: “There is good experience and expertise across a range of professions that actually make those decisions. > > “Might people try and use a GRC for nefarious purposes? Yes, that is one possibility. > > “But the GRC is only one aspect of the consideration that we would give in care of, in placement of that individual in custody.” > > He added that “risk assessment is not an exact science”. > > Mr Kerr said: “It’s a judgement call based up available information and facts that we have at that time. [https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20192941.scottish-prison-bosses-insist-rules-place-stop-abuse-gender-recognition-reforms/](https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20192941.scottish-prison-bosses-insist-rules-place-stop-abuse-gender-recognition-reforms/) > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > a) how easy it is to achieve that legal standard The ease of achieving that legal standard has been in place for a while in many countries all over the world. If you have any evidence of it being problematic, please let us know. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > b) the likelihood and number of people maliciously doing so The likelihood isn’t important. **filmore** expects “that nearly 100% of the convicted male defendants would suddenly come out as trans women during the sentencing phase of their trial.” They think that nearly every single male defendant will pretend to be trans. If we assume that is correct, and the _likelihood_ that people maliciously doing so is practically everyone, how are you imagining they would get past the risk assessment? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The same issues will exist pretty much anywhere in the world where this question is posed. And in places where it is easy to change your gender identity we haven’t seen a flood of people maliciously using the system anywhere. I’m not getting into an extended back-and-forth with you. So I’ll end with this. The evidence you presented was created and presented by anti-trans activists after they failed to be able to defend their position during a select committee. There is evidence that large parts of the report were plagiarized, that the Swedish data was misrepresented, that they may have conflated the numbers, there is no further independent verification of those numbers, that they deliberately juiced up the numbers in their report by adding the percentages which took the original data out of context. TLDR: the evidence here is dodgy. And if you want to make the case that trans prisoners “are predatory males and predatory trans women” (which is what these numbers were prepared to support) then I would suggest you provide independent data not filtered through a gender critical lens. > [@nightshadea](#): > > then theres this recent mess : > > [Two inmates impregnated by transgender inmate at all-women's prison in New Jersey: Report - Washington Times](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/14/two-inmates-impregnated-transgender-inmate-all-wom/) Or messes like this. > **[After a scathing report on sexual abuse at FL's female prison in 2020, has...](https://floridaphoenix.com/2022/12/21/after-a-scathing-report-on-sexual-abuse-at-fls-female-prison-in-2020-has-anything-changed__trashed-2/)** > > Two years after a Dec. 22, 2020 report revealed “notorious acts of sexual abuse, including rape, against prisoners” at the state’s largest and oldest women’s prison, federal officials made a return visit last week at Florida’s Lowell... Lets ban all male prison guards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830.md?page=7)