# Should transwomen be allowed in women's prisons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830 "2023-02-15T13:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/121 "2023-02-18T13:19:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Without the questions and the methodology we don’t know for sure. OK, if that is the case then the most reasonable course of action would be to study this in much more detail and find out exactly what the facts are and what the risk may be before committing to a course of action. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Fourthly: “easily apply for a change in gender” is an entirely subjective thing, and trans people I’ve spoken to have said processes like [this](https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/what-documents-you-need) are not easy to navigate at all. When I talk about the ease of application it was in reference to the move to self-identification in Scotland. Under those rules it _would_ be much easier to get a GRC. The more stringent rules you link to are those currently in place in the UK. They do set a much higher bar in order to be considered genuinely transgender. I’d not be opposed to retaining that much higher bar in respect to the housing of transwomen. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > if you want to make the case that trans prisoners “are predatory males and predatory trans women” You’ve fundamentally misunderstood my point. The above is not it _at all._ If there is to be a policy of housing transwomen in female prisons (something I am absolutely open to) then it is critical to be aware of the risks that come with that. One of which is that predatory males will seek to be placed in female prisons by means of identifying as women. Which has happened. The most recent furore in Scotland was based on precisely that scenario. As for independent data, the figures given are in the very table from the MOJ that you yourself pasted. The title of the data tables strongly suggests that both the total number of transgender prisoners and the number of those with sexual offences against them are a snapshot at that March/April 2019 timestamp. It would be a deeply weird way of compiling a table if it were not. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > those numbers are 3 years out of date As many official figures tend to be, I see no reason to assume they are an inaccurate picture of what was going on then. Could matters have changed greatly in the interim? sure, can’t rule that out. Further data would confirm this. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/122 "2023-02-19T01:02:51Z")
…just a general response: I need to reiterate that the “evidence” that was cited earlier in the thread was provided to support the argument made by Professor Freedman in the select committee that that trans prisoners "are predatory males and predatory trans women”. The numbers were produced as part of an OIA from Fair Play for Women: but they only posted _part_ of the written response from the MOJ but for some reason didn’t post the rest, even in a redacted form. This BBC fact check makes the following points (not directly related to this particular OIA, so I’ll just quote the general parts) > [@BBC](#): > > There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don’t show up in this data. > > … > > Fair Play for Women examined individual prison inspection reports and concluded that 41% of transgender women in prison are convicted sex offenders. > > Its claim was reported by several news outlets. > > If more than 40% of trans prisoners were sex offenders, that would be disproportionately high. > > … > > It says the figures “are not yet a reliable reflection of the numbers and location of trans prisoners in the prison estate”. > > The MoJ can’t count inmates who have not told prison staff they are transgender. > > Nor does it count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC). > > … > > The survey only counts prisoners who have already had a case conference - a meeting of senior managers and other officials - to decide how to manage the trans person within the prison estate. > > These are likely to be prisoners serving longer sentences. > > The Ministry of Justice told us “prisoners on longer sentences are more likely to be managed as a transgender prisoner than those on shorter sentences”. > > … > > Remember - those 125 transgender inmates only include people who have had a prison case conference. It won’t include transgender people who haven’t identified themselves to the prison service or who already have a gender recognition certificate. > **[How many transgender inmates are there?](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42221629)** > > Reality Check looks at claims around transgender prisoners and their convictions. So if we assume the raw numbers say what Fair Play claims they say, then the statement “76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%” is highly (and deliberately) misleading. Because that number **only includes inmates who have had a prison case conference**. It likely won’t include short-stay inmates, won’t include transgender people who didn’t identify themselves to the prison service, or who already had a GRC. So TLDR: I call bullshit on the evidence provided belatedly by Professor Freedman to the select committee. It doesn’t bring anything to the table and shouldn’t be considered as part of this debate. As for the GRC: yeah, there is zero evidence to support the idea that male prisoners would firstly decide that they would want to transition if the GRC were relaxed, and secondly, there is no evidence that a person who changes their gender identity for the purposes of getting into a womens prison would be able to easily fool the prison services when they do their risk assessments. For every Isla Bryson we have to also consider the “Mary’s”, who are just as an important part of this debate. > [@Independent](#): > > “You are basically set upon with conversations about being protected in return for sex,” Mary told [_news.com.au_](http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/a-transgender-woman-talks-about-life-in-a-male-prison/news-story/a6da09f95a36857eeee95f16028b06eb). > > “They are either trying to manipulate you or threaten you into some sort of sexual contact and then, once you perform the requested threat of sex, you are then an easy target as others want their share of sex with you, which is more like rape than consensual sex. > **[Transgender woman 'raped 2,000 times' in all-male prison](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/transgender-woman-raped-2-000-times-male-prison-a6989366.html)** > > 'It was hell on earth, it was as if I died and this was my punishment' Transgender people _also_ deserve to be protected in prison. They also should be allowed to be safe, to be kept away from predators. Allowing transwomen to be housed in womens prisons isn’t just about “being woke.” Its a matter of public safety and human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/123 "2023-02-19T02:18:00Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > When I talk about the ease of application it was in reference to the move to self-identification in Scotland. Under those rules it _would_ be much easier to get a GRC. […] > > If there is to be a policy of housing transwomen in female prisons (something I am absolutely open to) then it is critical to be aware of the risks that come with that. > > One of which is that predatory males will seek to be placed in female prisons by means of identifying as women. I repeat: > [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody, or at least a population statistically equivalent to nobody, is going to be voluntarily identifying and living as a transgender woman outside of prison just on the chance that they might get convicted of a crime and incarcerated, at which point they’d prefer to be in a women’s prison rather than a men’s. […] > > I think it’s a pretty safe bet that non-felons who identify and live as transgender women in their everyday lives, even if they’re not 100% “out” in all contexts, are sincere about their transgender identity. […] > > As for these hypothesized masses of male convicts who are supposedly all going to proclaim themselves transgender as soon as the judge pronounces sentence, that’s a different issue. And AFAICT, [the proposed legislation recognizes and addresses that issue:](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/20/scotland-proposed-gender-recognition-reforms-explained) > [@](#): > > The bill will introduce a system of self-declaration for obtaining a gender recognition certificate (GRC). It will remove the need for a psychiatric diagnosis of gender dysphoria and reduce the time someone must have been permanently living in their gender before they can apply, from two years to three months – or six months for 16- and 17-year-olds. […] > > MSPs across all parties have worked [on amendments](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/16/msps-scotland-gender-recognition-bill) to address concerns about abusive males taking advantage of the new system. […] > > [from in-text link] > Martin and Greene’s amendment means anyone who has been convicted of a sexual offence and then applies for a gender recognition certificate (GRC) must first undergo a risk assessment. This would allow the police to apply for a sexual harm order if that risk is found to be high, resulting in the certificate being refused. > > The Scottish government has already agreed to amend the notification scheme for sex offenders so that they must tell the authorities if they apply for a GRC. All this “concern” about supposed lack of awareness on the part of legislators regarding potential risks to cisgender women from predatory males abusing the system is a red herring, AFAICT. There is no realistic likelihood that the proposed laws will actually open the door to masses of male sexual predators proclaiming themselves transgender as soon as the judge pronounces sentence and getting a free pass to women’s prisons on the strength of it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/124 "2023-02-19T09:35:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > All this “concern” about supposed lack of awareness on the part of legislators regarding potential risks to cisgender women from predatory males abusing the system is a red herring The risk awareness of the original legislators was not high enough to include such safeguards from the off, a rather obvious amendment had to be drafted and put forward. And existing safeguards were not strong enough to prevent male rapists from being placed in female prisons, until a short few weeks ago. So I suggest that concern about this policy area in general is far from a red herring. If the heightened awareness of the potential risks and publicity about the mistakes made has ensured that the rules are tightened and better decisions are being made then I’m all for it. If we can now honestly say that the potential risk has now been reduced to near zero then that is a good state of affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/125 "2023-02-19T15:51:58Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And existing safeguards were not strong enough to prevent male rapists from being placed in female prisons, until a short few weeks ago. What are you talking about? There are dozens of male rapists employed at prisons. Hence why there are many, many more cases of male guards raping prisoners than trans female prisoners raping other female prisoners. The “safeguards” you reference do nothing about this. If that much larger issue had gotten, say, a quarter of the attention that the Trans issue gets, I’d maybe believe that this is about the safety of women. But you never, ever hear about this very real issue. Instead, you hear about hypothetical trans women committing hypothetical rapes. Why do you think this is? It’s _almost_ like this is not really about making women safer… ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/126 "2023-02-19T16:11:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What are you talking about? I don’t buy that you are in the slightest bit confused that I’m referring here to the prisoners. People with a known track record and convictions of sexual assault on women. > [@Babale](#): > > There are dozens of male rapists employed at prisons I’ll agree that employing a convicted male rapist as a guard in a female prison would be a terrible idea as well. If a thread was started with the intention of raising that as serious issue I would agree with it. > [@Babale](#): > > The “safeguards” you reference do nothing about this. No, and that wasn’t the intention of raising them. The employment policy for prison guards is a separate issue. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/127 "2023-02-19T16:18:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’ll agree that employing a convicted male rapist as a guard in a female prison would be a terrible idea as well. That is _definitely_ not what @Babale said. Do you agree with what was _actually_ said? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/128 "2023-02-19T16:33:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That is _definitely_ not what @Babale said. Do you agree with what was _actually_ said? I was talking about the risk of convicted known male sex offenders being placed in female prisons. Nothing to do with male prison guards. If Babale wants to ask me a specific question about the risks from male guards in female prisons then I’d be happy to answer. I have no problem accepting that in some places that will be a much bigger issue than placing transgender males in female prisons. I think the rape of women in society more generally is a bigger problem than either but I have not felt the need to refer to it. What Babale said is an important issue but it was nothing to do with my point, is not the point of the OP and is a classic example of the [fallacy of relative privation](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/129 "2023-02-19T16:38:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I was talking about the risk of convicted known male sex offenders being placed in female prisons. Nothing to do with male prison guards. But the _actual_ problem that currently exists has _everything_ to do with male prison guards. There is a bull in the china shop, but you want everyone to focus on indirect evidence that a mouse _might_ have visited. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/130 "2023-02-19T16:45:31Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > What are you talking about? > > I don’t buy that you are in the slightest bit confused that I’m referring here to the prisoners. People with a known track record and convictions of sexual assault on women. No, no confusion. You were referring to a non-existent, hypothetical problem. Meanwhile, actual prison guards continue to rape actual women on a daily basis. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > There is a bull in the china shop, but you want everyone to focus on indirect evidence that a mouse _might_ have visited. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/131 "2023-02-19T16:50:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You were referring to a non-existent, hypothetical problem. I was referring to the very real risk of a male transgender rapist purposefully being placed in a female prison. Something that _has_ happened. > [@Babale](#): > > Meanwhile, actual prison guards continue to rape actual women on a daily basis. I fully agree that that is a huge problem, so feel free to create a thread on it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/132 "2023-02-19T16:51:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But the _actual_ problem that currently exists has _everything_ to do with male prison guards. Same challenge to you, raise a thread about that specific problem. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > you want everyone to focus on indirect evidence that a mouse _might_ have visited I’m not referring to indirect evidence. What I was suggesting _has_ happened. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/133 "2023-02-19T16:52:54Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I was referring to the very real risk of a male transgender rapist purposefully being placed in a female prison. Something that _has_ happened. Yes, that DID happen. And guess what else happened? Just like any other prisoner who could be a threat to their fellow prisoners, the prison took special precautions to prevent this trans prisoner from hurting anyone else. So this wasn’t actually a problem in any way, shape, or form - was it? If only prisons took similar precautions regarding rapists on their payroll… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/134 "2023-02-19T16:55:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I fully agree that that is a huge problem, so feel free to create a thread on it. No, thanks. It’s relevant to THIS thread, in that it demonstrates that opposition to trans women in women’s prisons has very little to do with the safety of women, and much to do with anti-trans bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/135 "2023-02-19T16:55:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If only prisons took similar precautions regarding rapists on their payroll… I agree, As I’ve already said ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/136 "2023-02-19T17:01:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, thanks. It’s relevant to THIS thread, in that it demonstrates that opposition to trans women in women’s prisons has very little to do with the safety of women, and much to do with anti-trans bigotry. I disagree. My own view is that the housing of transwomen in female prisons can be done but only after very careful consideration and with strong safeguards in place. That’s exactly the same position I hold on the concept of male guards in female prisons. Where is the anti-trans bigotry in either of those positions? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/137 "2023-02-19T17:05:12Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I disagree. Really? You don’t think anyone, anywhere, is bringing up “trans women in prison” solely out of animus against trans women, and not because of a genuine concern about sexual assault in prisons? You think there’s literally nobody this describes? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/138 "2023-02-19T17:08:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > My own view is that the housing of transwomen in female prisons can be done but only after very careful consideration and with strong safeguards in place. Considering how your only example is of a trans woman who had sexual assault convictions and who was housed in a female prison _after very careful consideration and with strong safeguards in place_, and who was housed with special accommodations in place to prevent them from hurting any of the other women they’re housed with, I really don’t understand what your issue is. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Where is the anti-trans bigotry in either of those positions? In the fact that the trans-related issue is getting a level of focus that’s enormously disproportionate to the size of the actual issue. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/139 "2023-02-19T17:19:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Really? You don’t think anyone, anywhere, is bringing up “trans women in prison” solely out of animus against trans women, and not because of a genuine concern about sexual assault in prisons? You think there’s literally nobody this describes? I think framing an absolutist question like you have done is not helpful. I’m certain that it is a good description of some people arguing in this thread, I’m equally sure that is does not apply to others. So, as I’ve answered you, will you do me the courtesy of answering my own equally unhelpful question? Do you think that _anyone_ raising _any_ concern about transwomen in women’s prisons is not truly concerned with safety and is _only_ doing so out of anti-trans bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/140 "2023-02-19T17:23:48Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m certain that it is a good description of some people arguing in this thread, I’m equally sure that is does not apply to others. Do you think it’s just random chance that “What about trans women in prison?” is frequently presented as an urgent question, while the issue of rape by prison guards is seldom discussed in public? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830.md?page=8)