# Should transwomen be allowed in women's prisons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830 "2023-02-15T13:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/141 "2023-02-19T17:24:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > In the fact that the trans-related issue is getting a level of focus that’s enormously disproportionate to the size of the actual issue. That has nothing to do with any bigotry regarding the two positions that I stated. If you think there are bigger issues that deserve greater publicity and scrutiny then go ahead and do so. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/142 "2023-02-19T17:25:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you think it’s just random chance that “What about trans women in prison?” is frequently presented as an urgent question, while the issue of rape by prison guards is seldom discussed in public? I’m happy to answer that if you’ll answer my own question first. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/143 "2023-02-19T17:26:48Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That has nothing to do with any bigotry regarding the two positions that I stated. …yes, it clearly does. When prison guards rape prisoners on a daily basis, but people can’t help but clutch their pearls at the hypothetical idea of trans women in prisons, that tells you something about their priorities. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/144 "2023-02-19T17:28:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Do you think that _anyone_ raising _any_ concern about transwomen in women’s prisons is not truly concerned with safety and is _only_ doing so out of anti-trans bigotry? I’m happy to answer your question. There are probably also plenty of poorly-informed people who have been _misled_ into thinking that this is an urgent problem by fearmongering anti-trans bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/145 "2023-02-19T17:29:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m happy to answer that if you’ll answer my own question first. That’s okay, I have the answer I need. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/146 "2023-02-19T17:29:23Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Do you think that _anyone_ raising _any_ concern about transwomen in women’s prisons is not truly concerned with safety and is _only_ doing so out of anti-trans bigotry? No; I think that many people argue on the side of bigotry not out of actual hatred but rather out of ignorance. If you keep hearing from JK Rowling and other TERFs that trans women in prisons are a major issue, and you don’t bother to research the facts further, you may argue against trans women in prison due to real concern for the safety of women. But if you refuse to educate yourself when presented with evidence as to what the actual issues impacting women in prison are, that makes your motives start to look less pure. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/147 "2023-02-19T17:34:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …yes, it clearly does. When prison guards rape prisoners on a daily basis, but people can’t help but clutch their pearls at the hypothetical idea of trans women in prisons, that tells you something about their priorities. And men rape many more women on a daily basis in the outside world and yet you seem fixated on those that happen in jails. What does that say about _your_ priorities? Are you actually bothered about the safety of women? I tell you what it says about you, nothing. Just because you are discussing a more specific issue it doesn’t mean you don’t care about larger issues. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/148 "2023-02-19T17:35:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s okay, I have the answer I need. And you are not willing to answer my question? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/149 "2023-02-19T17:35:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And you are not willing to answer my question? You described it as “unhelpful”, so why bother? If you have questions that are genuine, I’m happy to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/150 "2023-02-19T17:41:31Z")
I think answers given by Reimann, Babale and the non-answer by Miller are very illuminating. I think they are the perfect point at which to end. I’m not going to talk in circles about this, my point is made. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/151 "2023-02-19T17:49:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think they are the perfect point at which to end. I’m not going to talk in circles about this, my point is made. Yes, I agree. You’ve definitely made your point, and I think your position is pretty dang clear. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/152 "2023-02-19T18:02:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Just because you are discussing a more specific issue it doesn’t mean you don’t care about larger issues. Sure, but this is completely irrelevant - it is a _non sequitur_. The dispute is not over whether you or TERFs are also concerned about genuine larger issues of women’s safety. The point is that a hyper focus on this specific issue may imply an _ulterior_ motive, something _other_ than women’s safety. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/153 "2023-02-19T18:06:01Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The point is that a hyper focus on this specific issue may imply an _ulterior_ motive, something _other_ than women’s safety. Especially when @Novelty_Bobble has repeatedly refused to address the fact that the only example he can find of this being an issue was handled correctly, with the trans woman with a history of sexual assault being transferred to a women’s prison but under special accommodations to prevent her from hurting anyone. So in fact, this isn’t a RARE issue - it is, as far as we can tell, a NONEXISTENT one. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/154 "2023-02-20T17:49:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So in fact, this isn’t a RARE issue - it is, as far as we can tell, a NONEXISTENT one. I am reminded of a meme I saw recently: [https://scontent-iad3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/332034632\_868275137585021\_7268826586541993892\_n.jpg?\_nc\_cat=100&ccb=1-7&\_nc\_sid=730e14&\_nc\_ohc=727JYLqV6WUAX\_VUTdU&\_nc\_ht=scontent-iad3-2.xx&oh=00\_AfD10FqZu1MRbVnpnAWIxQwYqKd-Okdo4KcDkVw\_tu8YzQ&oe=63F94580](https://scontent-iad3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/332034632_868275137585021_7268826586541993892_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=727JYLqV6WUAX_VUTdU&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-2.xx&oh=00_AfD10FqZu1MRbVnpnAWIxQwYqKd-Okdo4KcDkVw_tu8YzQ&oe=63F94580) ---
**Author:** ![fordgt100](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fordgt100](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fordgt100)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/155 "2023-02-25T09:59:38Z")
> **off topic please do not reply** > > Maybe a little off topic, but I don’t think anyone belongs in prison. It seems archaic, and doesn’t seem to work at all. People generally come out worse people than they did before they went in. I’m in favor of giving people a few chances and after that, send them to an island somewhere to protect society. Send them supplies on a ship, make sure they have food and stuff, and let them have at it. Hey, it worked for Australia! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/156 "2023-02-25T11:12:38Z")
This is very off topic and doesn’t belong in this thread. You can start a new thread if you like. Great Debates is for focused debates. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2023, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/157 "2023-02-26T08:47:55Z")
I am not really able to participate in the debate, I just wanted to say that reading this thread has been quite educational for me and I appreciate all those who explained the trans positive side of things so well. ---
**Author:** ![Danger\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6de8d8/32.png) [@Danger\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/158 "2023-03-06T21:05:45Z")
Being from a country which does not have this culture war, at least to the same degree, reading all of this discussion feels very strange. You have this small, practical problem that I’m sure there are many fully adequate solutions to. The _only_ reason it is being discussed is that it is part of this culture war. I just looked up how this was being done in Norway, and it turns out we have just one openly transgendered person in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/159 "2023-03-07T15:06:35Z")
> [@Danger\_Man](#): > > You have this small, practical problem that I’m sure there are many fully adequate solutions to. The _only_ reason it is being discussed is that it is part of this culture war. And what’s even more mindblowing is that it’s all essentially just a rehash of the earlier culture-war attacks on gay rights. A decade or so ago, tons of conservative activists were wringing their hands and howling about how letting people be openly gay in the military, in teaching, in marriage, etc. etc., would be so dangerous for straight people and would put children in harm’s way, etc. ad nauseam. Now that being gay is nowhere near such a big deal in the eyes of the general public as it used to be, conservative activists have to ramp up a new “threat” to howl about. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830/160 "2023-03-07T15:20:08Z")
And the target population is so much smaller. After (hopefully) trans rights are more fully embraced, they will have to go smaller and smaller, until they’re blaming all society’s ills on some woman in Kentucky or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-transwomen-be-allowed-in-womens-prisons/979830.md?page=9)