I think I must have misunderstood your point. My apologies. Anyway, im a straight dude and dont really have any skin in the game, I will bow out for now
Arguably, straight men with no skin in the game are the ones who ought to be speaking up the most, since we’re the ones benefiting most from the current cultural paradigm. I admit my politics are more, uh, revolutionary than most, but I do still appreciate your participation in this discussion!
Trans women have been proven less likely to commit rape than cisgender women. So any argument that is based on assuming that trans women would be the bigger threat to female prisoner than the cisgender women in that prison can be ignored.
If you want to argue that bigger women are more of a threat, then you would have to apply that to all bigger women, including those who are cisgender. And then you’d actually need to establish that bigger women are a bigger threat.
As for these questions about what women fear? They’re not really relevant. Our job is to keep prisoners safe, not to eliminate anything that scares them. We don’t separate genders in prison because women are afraid of men. We do so because doing so decreases risk.
Trans women are less likely to be rapists than cisgender women. And trans women are less likely to experience sexual assault among women. So, as long as our choices are just women’s prisons vs. men’s prisons, we logically should put trans women in women’s prisons.
It’s not nearly as complicated as some people make it out to be.
I’m not sure that this is necessarily correct from a statistical standpoint since we are dealing with a subset of the general population (criminals vs everyone). The probability of criminals to commit crimes is likely different than the probability of the general population. This is not anything to do with trans gender people–just people in general. I don’t disagree with your point about the general population, but if we’re dealing with the prison system, then it would be more accurate to look at the behavior of the people in the prison system. I would guess that things like rape, assault, extortion, etc happen in prison much more commonly than in the general population, for example. I’m not saying this should be used to prevent trans gender people from being housed in their preferred gender prison, but just pointing out that the real-world risk in the prison may be different than the general population.
I would also argue that straight men are causing the problem because it’s straight men who constantly drive these issues, with the assist of the occasional Laura Ingraham or Anne Coulter.
To @LSLGuy’s point above, there’s a list of over 200 culture war bullshit items promoted by the Right, including this transgender bullshit. All of it divisive, so much of it targeting disadvantaged groups of people, all of it based on the premise of “My beliefs say that you shouldn’t” when all I want out of people is for them to internalize instead the concept of “My beliefs say that I shouldn’t” and just leave people alone.
And so much of it driven by the same 20 or so people: Ben Shapiro. Tucker Carlson. Steve Bannon. Chris Rufo. Sean Hannity. Laura Ingraham. Dan Bongingo (spelling, but he is now Rush Limbaugh’s replacement). More.
It’s a huge list of culture war items, guys and gals, and we here at the Dope keep falling for their bullshit every time. CRT. Ebonics. War on Christmas. War on Dr Seuss. Terry Schiavo. The 1619 Project. On and on and on, and all threads like this do is give credibility to the idea that perhaps the haters have a point.
And I wish we could just stop and let people be who they want to be. And if they don’t want to be me, then so f-in what?
Sorry, bowing out now.
In the specific case of a trans woman rapist, obviously she shouldn’t be left to freely roam among the type of person she previously victimized. But a woman is still a woman, and since we segregate by gender she should be treated exactly like a cis woman who was a threat to other women would be treated. Would anyone give a moments thought to keeping a cisgender woman who exclusively victimized other women in a men’s prison? The only reason it’s considerable for a trans woman to be treated differently is because of inherent biases in our cultural understanding of gender and gender relations.
Determined? I don’t know. But I suspect that biology does play a role, if for no other reason that biology influences culture. How significant? YMMV, case by case.
The OP is asking a question that suggests a yer or no answer. Any absolute yes or no, though, as has been show with numerous examples in this thread, will cause in injustice to a particular sub-set of the population. And an “it depends” aswer is not an aswer at all.
I think the OP has asked a great question: taking things to their logical extremes to see the consequences and contradictions is an excellent way to proceed. So far this approach has not lead to a definitive answer in this thread, but I, a straight not US male who has never been in prison, has learned something here, so thanks for that.
I would just note that the privacy that @RTFirefly is responding to @Stanislaus about in the first quote and the privacy that @Qadgop_the_Mercotan is talking about in the second are two different animals. As a formal matter, prisoners have no privacy nor any expectation of one whatsoever from those running the prison. Their possessions, persons, mail, and phone conversations are all subject to inspection at any time for any reason or for no reason at all by those running the facility. Even showering or using the toilet isn’t something prisoners have a ‘right’ to do in private as one would understand the concept of ‘right’ in a free society. If those running the facility want a urine sample, the prisoner doesn’t get to say no or get to do it in private. If they want to conduct a strip search, the prisoner doesn’t get to say no or claim it is an intrusion on their privacy. There’s no new level of surveillance that would be intruding on the prison population’s privacy needed to get the risk or rape reduced to “really quite low” as per @Stanislaus as there is no privacy to intrude upon, at least in the US.
As a practical matter, there exists the informal, and as they said, easily and often breached privacy among inmates that @Qadgop_the_Mercotan talks about, but that is entirely an informal matter between prisoners, not a formal entitlement to privacy from the institution as one would understand the concept living as a citizen in a free society.
…some recent news.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/28/us/indiana-jail-rape-lawsuit.html
The problem with your position here, and its a big one, is that when we end up with a discussion like this that is hedged entirely around speculation, personal feelings, subjective impressions, poor understanding of the science.
But the reality is that there is a very real problem going on here and if your position really is as simple as " the issue here is preventing assaults of any kind occurring in prisons" then the focus should be on the power imbalance between guard and prisoner.
So the solution here appears to be simple. If segregation is the solution, then men should be banned from women’s prisons, full stop.
That means no male prison guards. No male wardens. No male doctors or nurses. No male janitors.
This should be a no-brainer. The power imbalance here is significant, the odds of men with power getting away with sexual assault are pretty good. Its a thing that has been going on for decades in prisons all over the world.
If the concern here is genuinely about the well-being of women prisoners (and lets not forget that sexual assault of male prisoners is also a significant issue) and if transwomen shouldn’t be allowed in women’s prisons, then male prison guards should also not be allowed.
OR.
We could decide things case by case. Make a risk assessment based on both the potential for risk to both fellow prisoners AND the prisoner. BOTH need to be taken into account.
How to handle transwomen in prison is a significantly easier problem to deal with than the issue of prison guards taking advantage of their positions of power. And its a shame that society in general have chosen to focus all of its energy on the former, and almost nothing on the latter. And I suspect that the latter will never have enough attention paid to it. Instead we will just focus on the latest moral panic.
Another problem with mixing men and women in prison is not just the threat to the women, but that issues of jealousy and territory will cause the men to fight among themselves.
Reminder: These are criminals. They have shown themselves to be incapable of executive function, or they are sociopaths, or they lack conscientiousness or judgment. Some of them are in for life, and have very little to lose by committing crimes while in prison. Mixing men and women in this environment is just inviting disaster.
As for trans people, it’s a very difficult problem. A first approximation of a solution might be to treat them based on their sex organs. A fully-transitioned trans woman who has had the penis removed can go to a woman’s prison. One who is physically male cannot. A trans-man who has had the uterus removed and a phalloplasty can go to a men’s prison. Those who still have their original, functioning sex organs cannot.
No, that would no be perfect, but as a compromise it makes sense. Or, give them a choice: If you are a transwoman who still has a penis, you can either go to a men’s prison, or you can go to a women’s prison, in which case you will be kept in solitary or, if there are enough trans people, in a smaller group with them. You will only be allowed into the women’s population until direct supervision.
How does it make sense, exactly? If a trans women is a sexual threat, they’re a sexual threat regardless of whether or not they’ve had their penis removed. Unless you think the dick is where the evil lives, I don’t see how this makes any sense at all.
Certainly, and the reverse is also true: culture influences biology. Just look at bonobos compared to chimps.
And that’s a fitting example, because the cultural influences in question are old. Very old. Potentially as old as sapiens themselves. And as you say, influenced by biology. But we aren’t instinct-driven animals anymore, and as a society, we can drive cultural change that impacts behavior much more directly than the underlying biological influences that once drove the formation of the culture.
Male rapists who pretend to be trans in order to prey on women shouldn’t be in women’s prisons.
There, that’s easy. Of course, that has nothing to do with actual transwomen – you know, the ones not pretending, and with no intention to use their trans status to hurt people.
Can you give a cite for this? I have never heard of this.
I totally agree with the concept, having spent time in the prison of all-male boarding school in my teens.
ETA: maybe I should read the full thread before replying, I see it is pretty long. The question, however still stands.
Indeed, it goes both ways. And as we are in the nature vs. nurture territory: Do you happen to know whether a bonobo as ever been raised by a chimp society (or vice versa) and what kind of behaviour it showed afterwards? My guess would be that a chimp raised in bonobo society still behaves as a chimp, because being aggressive is easier in a peaceful society, while a bonobo raised in a chimp society would rather adopt the chimp pattern of behaviour, because being peaceful on a violent society sucks.
That is the question. Of course we are still instinct driven, but to what extent, in any given circumstance? And to what degree can anyone repress their instincts, specially under stress? We are talking about behaviour in jail, an environment designed to be stressful.
I think you overestimate our capabilities, both as individuals, as society and as species, but yes, we could do something. Not much, I fear, but it is worth a try. Still: count me on the pessimist’s camp.
Assuming the prison is run by the government in the first place. This is not always the case.
More profit or more safety. Which do you think a corporation will choose?
As @JohnT said a bit ago, this is a hot-button RW freakout and little more. They are not concerned for the health and safety of prisoners, period. But especially not ciswomen or transwomen.
This is the strawman scenario they’re working from.
Ordinary cismale psycho rapist Bob is in prison. A stupid-woke law is passed by a stupid-woke legislature and signed into law by a stupid-woke governor. The law says among other things that a) transwomen may self-identify as such, and b) transwomen prisoners shall be housed in women’s prisons.
About a day later psycho Bob raises his hand, says he’s trans, and is promptly moved to the women’s prison. No questions asked because that’s what the stupid-woke law requires. Bob now has open season on all the ciswomen in the prison yard.
The fox isn’t guarding the henhouse; instead he’s locked inside it and can’t be removed.
That is what the RW propaganda machine is talking about. And, as @JohnT also said, we here should not be dignifying this garbage by attempting to debate it in good faith. Even if there really are legitimate issues nearby. As there are here, such as prisoner safety in general and appropriate handling for trans- and other minority-type prisoners in an environment rife with psychopaths and bullies.
On this issue, it’s important to remember that it’s not just the RW that’s freaking out over this stuff. There’s a significant anti-trans presence on the left, as well, and they freak out about trans women in prison just as disingenuously as the right.
Which has the added negative consequence of continuing to normalize gender segregation as being “for women’s own good”. This reinforces the regressive attitude that if women care about being safe, then they need to stay in “women’s spaces”, and if they don’t, then they have to put up with predatory behavior.
The harder transphobic cisgender women fight to exclude transgender women from “women’s spaces” on the grounds of “protecting women”, the more they’re playing into the sexist stereotype that women’s only realistic or reasonable expectation of safety lies in isolation from men.
I don’t follow this stuff closely. I wonder how much the folks @Kimstu describes are “playing into the sexist stereotype” versus actively trying to promote that stereotype as some sort of truth.
As well, a bit like with crime in general, how you best prevent the future generations from growing up less evil is probably very different from how you manage the evil that exists in present generations. And given finite resources this year, on which problem do we place our emphasis?
20-ish years ago the British Conservatives ran an election campaign on a slogan of “Tough on crime; tough on the causes of crime.” It was pure BS vs. their actual intent, but it makes for a nice sound-bite encapsulation of the two different and surprisingly orthogonal problems to be solved.
As applied to the “safety only through separation” stereotype …
Are the folks promoting that stereotype arguing that this really is an eternal truth of immutable biology, or just a bad but changeable habit of society, or something more like a cynical “bad habit that could be readily changed, but won’t be, so in effect immutably eternal”?
I’m not playing gotcha here, I’m honestly curious.