# Should Trig Palin have never been born? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737 "2008-09-22T20:27:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/81 "2008-09-23T12:26:07Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well, sure, but we can’t all cure cancer. Most of us have accomplishments that are much, _much_ less significant than that. For a normally bright person, I think that our other attributes can have effects on the world that are just as important, if not more so, than our intelligence does. It’s an intentionally exagerrated example, and just like money doesn’t either go to kids or dysentary, there is no dichotomy between being intelligent and being kind. I just don’t particularly buy into the “kindness is more important thing,” maybe because it sounds a little too much like a cousin to the Disabled Angel stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/82 "2008-09-23T13:47:39Z")
Look, it is very possible to make way too much of all this. I said above that we can’t eliminate this - and guess what - we can’t. While trisomy can be detected pretty easily, it isn’t the only cause of mental retardation, and most of those other genetic caused aren’t routinely screened. Even if they were, there are many physical causes of retardation (brain damage and the like) that won’t ever be screened out, and we will have to deal with them forever. Given that, why worry about the ethics of this at all? I suppose at the fringes there will be some rare cases that make us all think harder about the matter - like Tay-Sachs. My cousin had to deal with this a few years back - his daughter died at the age of two after numerous surgeries to fix a malformed heart. She never took a step, her mental development was impeded by her birth defect. Even if that had been repaired, her life likely would never have been normal. What should they have done? Well, ask them today and they probably will tell you they wouldn’t have done anything differently - even after all of that. I am the least judgmental pro-lifer you’ll likely meet - I don’t get into anyone’s face and tell them they’ve made a bad choice. So it amazes me that people who do claim to be pro-choice - even in this thread - will run down the choices of others rather than gently persuade them that others are better. I mentioned Ted Kennedy above. Now, I freely admit that he has a different job and role than the rest of you do - but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t still follow his example. If he is disturbed that women are aborting Downs Syndrome babies because they aren’t aware of the resources available to them or the quality of life their children might have - shouldn’t we all be concerned by that? Isn’t an informed choice a better one? For all the talk of middle ground on abortion, this one seems like a no-brainer, especially since the only people punished are doctors who don’t counsel their patients properly. Shame this bill went nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/83 "2008-09-23T13:56:36Z")
In my school, the students who have the greatest amount spent on them, per capita, are the severely retarded students. The have the lowest number of students-to-teacher ratio. Many of the students have an aide assigned to them personally. They have separate transportation, if they want it. Half of each day is spent on “field trips” to go shopping, eat at restaurants, get their hair done, go to museums, and scads of other things. On the shopping and eating out trips, the district supplies them with spending money. The district picks up the tab on expenses for the other trips, as well as providing lunches. The purpose of all this is so that the students in question can “learn to be part of the community.” Once they leave us, these students will either live at home with their families or live in a group home. None of them is ever going to hold more than the most basic, unskilled minimum wage job. Ever. Some of them are sexually active. Pregnancies are not at all unknown. Now you have a person who couldn’t take of herself, and never will be able to, with a child. What do you think the return on this investment is? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/84 "2008-09-23T13:57:19Z")
[QUOTE=sqweels] I would like to ask Sarahfeena and everyone else what their reaction would have been if it became known that Sarah Palin had indeed gotten an abortion upon learning that her fetus was diagnosed with DS. [/QUOTE] Exactly the same. Her body, her family, her choice. If you are asking if I would approve…well, like I don’t give a rip for others approval I also don’t toss out my own unasked for. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/85 "2008-09-23T14:18:00Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > In my school, the students who have the greatest amount spent on them, per capita, are the severely retarded students. The have the lowest number of students-to-teacher ratio. Many of the students have an aide assigned to them personally. They have separate transportation, if they want it. Half of each day is spent on “field trips” to go shopping, eat at restaurants, get their hair done, go to museums, and scads of other things. On the shopping and eating out trips, the district supplies them with spending money. The district picks up the tab on expenses for the other trips, as well as providing lunches. The purpose of all this is so that the students in question can “learn to be part of the community.” > > Once they leave us, these students will either live at home with their families or live in a group home. None of them is ever going to hold more than the most basic, unskilled minimum wage job. Ever. > > Some of them are sexually active. Pregnancies are not at all unknown. Now you have a person who couldn’t take of herself, and never will be able to, with a child. > > What do you think the return on this investment is? Well, most “liberals” don’t talk of things solely as a return on investment - they talk of it in terms of compassion as well. Now, of course, we can talk about education policy and group homes and the like - that is perfectly reasonable. But that is a far different question than whether someone is better off not born, right? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/86 "2008-09-23T14:26:45Z")
I have no problem with people who choose to terminate a downs fetus nor with those who choose to go through with it. The burden to society thing doesn’t hold water with me. There are people who choose to go through with the pregnancy and then put the child into private or state care anyway, and that’s fine too. Our society is set up to accommodate all these choices. I think it’s rare that the Downs person considers their life a tragic waste. In fact, most of the functional Downs people who bag groceries at my local store seem to enjoy their work and the independence it affords them. It isn’t up to me to make the call for others, regardless of what I might do in a similar situation. The world is made up of all kinds of people with varying degrees of ability, contribution, and happiness. Whether a woman chooses to raise a special needs child or abort it is entirely up to her. I won’t pass judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/87 "2008-09-23T14:30:37Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Well, most “liberals” don’t talk of things solely as a return on investment - they talk of it in terms of compassion as well. > > Now, of course, we can talk about education policy and group homes and the like - that is perfectly reasonable. But that is a far different question than whether someone is better off not born, right? These students use a highly disproportionate share of school resources, which are ultimately taxpayer dollars. Though it is not necessarily the case everywhere, in this case they they typically come from families with other special needs children. The parents, themselves, are neither of high intelligence nor are they high earners. They are, more often than not, receiving public assistance in various forms. Where does our obligation to support retarded people end? I can see the compassion in “I’ll feed you because you can’t feed yourself.” Does that also mean “Go ahead and have children who can’t feed themselves either?” ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/88 "2008-09-23T15:37:54Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Well, most “liberals” don’t talk of things solely as a return on investment - they talk of it in terms of compassion as well. > > Now, of course, we can talk about education policy and group homes and the like - that is perfectly reasonable. But that is a far different question than whether someone is better off not born, right? When there are ample resources, there is plenty of room for compassion and it should be exercised. I’m disappointed in the amount of compassion we have shown in our country to those that don’t provide “economic value.” At the same time, all resources are limited. The more limited the are, the harder the choices that need to be made are. If we invest heavily in those who can’t provide much in terms of economic value - we have less to invest in those that do. We are fortunate in our society to even be able to have the discussions about whether we should support the disadvantaged. Its a sign of wealth. I’m not sure that if the discussion is “far different” - some people value quality of life over quantity - and if you can assure me a severely disabled person will have a comfortable dignified life - then that is a far easier choice than if that person will be warehoused in a sub-standard institution, wallowing in their own filth and the filth of the other inmates. That person - well, I can’t say they should have never been born, but it isn’t a fate I’d choose to participate in giving them. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/89 "2008-09-23T15:55:36Z")
I wanted to flesh out my answer to **squeels** just a little bit. Although I think it’s certainly unproductive and lacking compassion to condemn any individual for not carrying through with a Downs pregnancy, I do think it’s very sad commentary on our society that, by some estimates, as many as [90%](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10521836?dopt=AbstractPlus) of pregnancies where Downs is diagnosed end in abortion. That statistic is staggering, and I think it’s an indication that our society has become more selfish and less willing to extend ourselves beyond what is easy. I think there’s very little case to be made that a Downs person himself is better off not existing. And I also think that the opinion that it’s better to end these pregnancies due to the strain on society IS a form of eugenics…they aren’t perfect, they are too much trouble, so they cease to exist. Not an aspect of our society that I am particularly proud of. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/90 "2008-09-23T15:58:32Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Where does our obligation to support retarded people end? I can see the compassion in “I’ll feed you because you can’t feed yourself.” Does that also mean “Go ahead and have children who can’t feed themselves either?” Funny, the sterilization of the retarded was once common and was then rejected as a particularly horrific eugenic crime. Now people discuss it pretty blithely - as if all of this ugly past history just never happened at all. I know you didn’t mention sterilization directly - but that is the implication of your post. And eugenics is implicit in this particular abortion choice as well - it is termed eugenic abortion in many circles, and not always pejoratively. I think the sheer existence of retarded citizens - without assigning them particular virtue in and of themselves - can pretty conclusively test the compassionate limits of a society. Frankly, our society doesn’t do particularly well in this regard - and many of the worst offenders in this area are not good-hearted liberals but political “progressives”. They are often the ones using “retarded” as a slur on blogs and board comments; they are the ones, like **Der Trihs** above, who strip them of all humanity and talk of them in strictly utilitarian terms. They are the ones who 80 to 100 years ago were at the forefront of the eugenics movement when it was at its high tide. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/91 "2008-09-23T16:02:36Z")
I think that statistic is skewed by the fact that it only takes into account people who choose to have the amnio. I think that skews the sample towards people who are already predisposed to want to terminate if the baby will be DS. The sampling does not account for all those who skip the amnio altogether because it will not influence their decision. Either that or there are a whole lot of hypocritical pro-lifers out there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/92 "2008-09-23T16:06:01Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I think the sheer existence of retarded citizens - without assigning them particular virtue in and of themselves - can pretty conclusively test the compassionate limits of a society. Frankly, our society doesn’t do particularly well in this regard - and many of the worst offenders in this area are not good-hearted liberals but political “progressives”. What do you know about how our society does in this regard? I work in the DD field. I think we do pretty well. > [@](#): > > They are often the ones using “retarded” as a slur on blogs and board comments; they are the ones, like **Der Trihs** above, who strip them of all humanity and talk of them in strictly utilitarian terms. They are the ones who 80 to 100 years ago were at the forefront of the eugenics movement when it was at its high tide. Cite for ANY of this garbage? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/93 "2008-09-23T16:10:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite for ANY of this garbage? [Here’s one at least.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10151039&postcount=136) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/94 "2008-09-23T16:14:27Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > [Here’s one at least.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10151039&postcount=136) So you’ve got nothing. You’re just parakeeting PC hogwash that using the word “retarded” to mean stupid or lame is dehumanizing to mentally handicapped people. Do you KNOW any retarded people? Have you spent any time in that community? Would it shock you to learn that THEY say “retarded” to mean stupid or lame all the time? Spare me your uneducated sanctimony. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/95 "2008-09-23T16:17:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think that statistic is skewed by the fact that it only takes into account people who choose to have the amnio. I think that skews the sample towards people who are already predisposed to want to terminate if the baby will be DS. The sampling does not account for all those who skip the amnio altogether because it will not influence their decision. > > Either that or there are a whole lot of hypocritical pro-lifers out there. Of course, the sample is skewed. Well, actually, it’s not, because the statistic quoted has to do with the number of diagnosed cases, not all cases. So, the statistic reflects the sample. However, your point is taken, that 90% of ALL Downs children are not aborted. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/96 "2008-09-23T16:21:13Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > That statistic is staggering, and I think it’s an indication that our society has become more selfish and less willing to extend ourselves beyond what is easy. I think there’s very little case to be made that a Downs person himself is better off not existing. “They’re better off not existing” is meaningless in my opinion, but I don’t think there is anything wrong or shameful about these abortions. > [@](#): > > And I also think that the opinion that it’s better to end these pregnancies due to the strain on society IS a form of eugenics…they aren’t perfect, they are too much trouble, so they cease to exist. In a manner of speaking, it is eugenics. But does choosing to have disabled children make us better as a species, morally? I have to say I can’t see how it does. I think I’m on reasonably safe ground in saying that, given the choice between having a healthy child and a disabled one, very few people would choose to have the disabled child.\* Since that scenario is fictional, the only question is whether or not people feel qualified to take an active hand in continuing a pregnancy for a child they know will be disabled. Some people do, some people don’t. \*I’m allowing here for some parents with particular disabilities who want to keep the culture of that disability alive. And I’d have a hard time believing that’s a moral choice either. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/97 "2008-09-23T16:24:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s an intentionally exagerrated example, and just like money doesn’t either go to kids or dysentary, there is no dichotomy between being intelligent and being kind. I just don’t particularly buy into the “kindness is more important thing,” maybe because it sounds a little too much like a cousin to the Disabled Angel stereotype. Sorry, missed this post before. I wouldn’t say that kindness is the MOST important thing, either. What I would say is that each of us has our own unique gifts. Most people aren’t capable of doing work that is particularly significant. Hell, I help develop marketing for consumer goods…that’s a terrific contribution to mankind, don’t you think? But I’m able to make other contributions that don’t necessarily depend on brilliance or scientific talent, which I am glad for. And I don’t think it’s right to dismiss a person based on lower intelligence, but rather as a society, we need to learn to value other things so that _all_ contributions are appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/98 "2008-09-23T16:35:10Z")
I’ll note, too, that the more prominent American supporters of eugenics included Margaret Sanger and Woodrow Wilson. British supporters included John Maynard Keynes and H.G Wells. There’s your progressive bona fides right there. As for the “retard” slur, I’ll not press it, except to note that I have known people to be offended by it as much as a people would be by other slurs. And for good reason - if the word is directed against you an awful lot and you’re not as sophisticated as others, you might not pick up on the nuances of proper and improper use against, say, a sitting governor. Why is this slur acceptable where others wouldn’t be in polite company? A person of your intelligence, **Diogenes** , ought to know the answer, though a person with your spectacular sense of denial might not. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/99 "2008-09-23T16:41:00Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I do think it’s very sad commentary on our society that, by some estimates, as many as [90%](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10521836?dopt=AbstractPlus) of pregnancies where Downs is diagnosed end in abortion. That statistic is staggering, and I think it’s an indication that our society has become more selfish and less willing to extend ourselves beyond what is easy. Or that people don’t take on burdens if they don’t have to. A hundred years ago, there was no such thing as prenatal testing. So parents really had no option - they had to roll the dice. Of course, to be fair, infants born with the kind of defects [often associated with Down syndrome](http://www.baptistonline.org/health/library/gene4593.asp) died anyway. > [@](#): > > I think there’s very little case to be made that a Downs person himself is better off not existing. And I also think that the opinion that it’s better to end these pregnancies due to the strain on society IS a form of eugenics…they aren’t perfect, they are too much trouble, so they cease to exist. Not an aspect of our society that I am particularly proud of. I think the key is your phrasing that “they cease to exist”. A pro-choicer would argue that DS fetuses that are aborted never existed (as humans) in the first place. Suppose there were some technology that could examine a woman’s ova and painlessly destroy those that carried the genetic defect of Down syndrome. Thus no Down syndrome babies would ever be conceived. I am sure even pro-lifers would agree that this was a good thing. If you believe that a pre-viable fetus is not a separate human life, then you would tend to feel the same way about aborting a DS fetus. If you do believe that, then of course your position follows logically. Killing babies out of convenience is morally offensive, just as it would be offensive to kill a Down syndrome baby after birth. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737/100 "2008-09-23T16:41:06Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Why is this slur acceptable where others wouldn’t be in polite company? “Retarded” is not a slur. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-trig-palin-have-never-been-born/464737.md?page=6)