# Should turntables be considered valid Instruments?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 15, 2001, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388 "2001-08-15T14:54:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2001, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/21 "2001-08-15T17:49:15Z")
Well, shit. I’m an idiot this morning.
“A device for playing or producing music” seems to indicate that something is only a “musical instrument” if it is specifically for the production of music.
Which means, I suppose, that a saw is a wood-cutting tool that can be used to make music, but is not itself a musical instrument.
So the question is this: is a DJ turntable intended for the playing of records or the creation of music? If the former, then it is a record player that can be used to create music. If the latter, it is indeed a musical instrument.
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### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2001, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/22 "2001-08-15T17:55:56Z")
Sorry, **Zaphod** , I didn’t see your post.
Having heard many very talented DJs, I have to say that in capable hands a turntable is capable of playing music that is fundamentally different from the source material.
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### Author:  [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2001, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/23 "2001-08-15T18:00:55Z")
Beeblbrox:
> [@](#):
>
> I think the question is really “Are DJ’s able to use their turntables to produce sounds that are wholly different from the source material on the vinyl?”
Definately. Entirely and completely different. If you like I could burn a CD of some examples of this. Not only to prove a point also to spread some good tunes! it would be better to go see it in person. They are having a turntable festival here in NYC callled Stereotopia. A couple hundred Dj’s. If you are around here it’s on the 25th of August.
andros:
> [@](#):
>
> So the question is this: is a DJ turntable intended for the playing of records or the creation of music? If the former, then it is a record player that can be used to create music. If the latter, it is indeed a musical instrument.
Well, it has changed. Turntable were originally made for playing records. Then Grandmaster Theodore invented scratching and DJ’s changed from people who play others music, to people who make there own music. then a lovely company called Technics piked up on this and souped up there turntables and released the 1200 series. The 1200 is not really for your home (although it makes a lovely addition to any home), it is for the performance DJ.
Now, a Dj just playing songs, isn’t neccasarily using it as an instrument. Once he/she starts being original and creative with it they definately are. But either way, I say it’s an instrument. Kind of like I can use a guitar to play music or I can use it as a baseball bat. Either way, if you see the Guitar, you would call it an instrument, right? Even if it ends up a broken instrument after I hit a Soft-Ball with it.
DaLovin’Dj
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### Author:  [@kylen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kylen)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2001, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/24 "2001-08-15T22:06:17Z")
I think we need to spilt ‘turntablism’ into a two categories (to start):
1. Sampling (or looping)
2. Scratch DJing
To me, when a DJ uses a turntable to clip a recognizable sound and then loops it (Yo! Yo! or something the like) it is akin to using a megaphone when singing or an effects pedal on a guitar - not an instrument, but a tool to be used with instruments to make music. After all, all they are doing is playing a pre-created piece of music at a specific time in sync with ‘real’ (not canned) music. Much like what you would find in much of the pop music today (Britney Spears comes to mind…hmmm…oops, sorry). After all, if you go to an opera and the accompanying music is off a record (or tape or cd), then it’s not being used as an instrument. When music is played back, the turntable is not an instrument.
Scratching, on the other hand, is taking chunks and snipets of albums, often completely unrecoginzable, and making them into music. Kid Koala’s Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is an excellent example of this. On the track “Drunk Trumpet” he splices together sounds from records that give the effect of a trumpet being tortured by a b-grade lounge act that gets his paycheck cashed at the bar. Unbelievable stuff… When new, original sounds are created from existing records, then music is made and the turntable is an instrument.
The only problem is that turntable use usually falls somewhere between these two categories, making a general answer to the OP difficult.
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### Author:  [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/25 "2001-08-16T03:10:27Z")
What do you mean by valid? Is the turntable invalid just because no one has been enterprising enough to use it in a orchestral/chamber production, not yet anyway. Wait a minute. Didn’t Steve Reich in “Different Trains” create music extrapolated from people inflections in voice.
Both Steve Reich and the DJ when he loops or scratches worked to suspend time, using the moment itself as a musical note, bringing it forward and back, at least for a few moments. This suspension of time is the integral part of music.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/26 "2001-08-16T03:27:35Z")
Can I hand a DJ a piece of sheet music and say “Play this song?” If the answer is no then it is not a musical instrument.
Marc
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### Author:  [@vorfod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vorfod)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/27 "2001-08-16T03:35:04Z")
**Marc:** A very _very_ narrow definition. With the right equipment, probably can be done - depends on the complexity of the song, and how good the musician is. As an example, I’m a qualified clarinet teacher, but if you give me sheet music that is out of my instrument’s range, or beyond my abilities, does that mean that the clarinet is no longer an instrument?
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### Author:  [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/28 "2001-08-16T03:48:42Z")
Marc–can you hand a drummer a piece of sheet music and say, “Play this song?” If you can, it’s because a drum part has been written out for him, or else the drummer can interpret the piece enough in his head to provide an appropriate rhythm.
The only reason a similar rhythm part couldn’t be written for a turntablist is that the art form hasn’t been around long enough for a notation system to have come about (as far as I know, anyway).
Dr. J
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### Author:  [@vorfod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vorfod)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/29 "2001-08-16T04:03:48Z")
**Dr. J:** Given a decent sampler, pitch shifter, and a reasonable FX box, and the help of a workmate who’s a hell of a lot better on turntables than I (I have to admit to liking CD’s better for DJing purposes), I can do it. Give me sheet music for a reasonably simple song,and it’s possible. I can’t see anyone performing a Steve Vai solo, or anything by Paginnini, but within some limitations, it can be done.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/30 "2001-08-16T04:07:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by stofsky \*
> \*\*Well, call me a “schmoe guitar-head” if you will, but I’ll say no, it’s not an instrument. You are not creating original sounds, but merely using others’ sounds to create something possibly new. Are you an artist? I won’t go there, since there are many who feel that pastiche is an art form (including William S. Burroughs). But I’d disagree that you’re a musician or that a turntable is a musical instrument. \*\*
When you play your guitar you aren’t making new sounds you are just making a specific resonance that you could repeat using any other string of similar substance length and tension.
Erek
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### Author:  [@longjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/longjohn)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/31 "2001-08-16T12:06:01Z")
to clear up the cellist who became a DJ in a month:
she was required only to mix some records into each other, around five I think, – most of which were at exactly the same tempo anyway. This is beatmatching and is not particularly hard to do with records of similar BPM, club DJs do it all night. There were aspects of the club DJ’s skills she didn’t need to replicate, judging the crowd’s mood, planning an extended set, picking the music and more complex mixing.
What she was not even attempting was turntablism, the art of creating novel sounds out of two or more decks plus a fader (and possibly effects). This unarguably requires a great deal of skill, and you would be able to master only the basics in a month.
My two cents – a turntable can be an instrument.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/32 "2001-08-16T12:29:51Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by vorfod \*
> \*\ ***Dr. J:** Given a decent sampler, pitch shifter, and a reasonable FX box, and the help of a workmate who’s a hell of a lot better on turntables than I (I have to admit to liking CD’s better for DJing purposes), I can do it. Give me sheet music for a reasonably simple song,and it’s possible. I can’t see anyone performing a Steve Vai solo, or anything by Paginnini, but within some limitations, it can be done. \*\*
Is a sampler some device that rips off what other people have played so that the DJ can then use it? If you’ve got to program it to play a song it isn’t a musical instrument. Any more then a boom box is a musical instrument.
Marc
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### Author:  [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/33 "2001-08-16T12:46:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MGibson \*
> Is a sampler some device that rips off what other people have played so that the DJ can then use it?
Um, no. It can record any sound you want it to. A piece of existing music, a dog barking, a baby crying, a whistle, whatever.
> [@](#):
>
> If you’ve got to program it to play a song it isn’t a musical instrument.\*\*
I guess that eliminates drum machines and analog synthesizers as musical instruments.
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### Author:  [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/34 "2001-08-16T13:18:38Z")
I was thinking…if you take a record that has just one or two long tones on it would a DJ be able to manipulate the tones to form a melody line? I would think that with some practice they could, which would make a turntable an instrument. If you add another record with two more different tones, as well as a pitch bend, the DJ has many more tones to work with so the melody could become more complex.
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### Author:  [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/35 "2001-08-16T13:36:35Z")
[quote]
I was thinking…if you take a record that has just one or two long tones on it would a DJ be able to manipulate the tones to form a melody line? I would think that with some practice they could, which would make a turntable an instrument. If you add another record with two more different tones, as well as a pitch bend, the DJ has many more tones to work with so the melody could become more complex. [\quote]
Yes definately. I have some examples of this in my music collection. Some people use recorded phone dial tones. Using just steady tones and altering the pitch (how fast the platter spins the record) whole melodies can be played. I saw a guy (DJ Swamp of Beck fame) use a single tone on two records to play the theme to beverly hills cop. Groovy shit. Then he started juggling records while he was mixing. Not beat juggling. Juggling. Like multiple records in the air while he was mixing. Then he trashed his rig!!! Cool.
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### Author:  [@longjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/longjohn)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/36 "2001-08-16T13:38:14Z")
Horhay -
This is exactly what a DJ does, except that they don’t limit themselves to anything as simple as a tone. They manipulate complex rhythms and vocals.
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### Author:  [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/37 "2001-08-16T13:53:24Z")
LongJohn–Yeah, I realize that. I was just using the tones to demonstrate that a turntable is a musical instrument. After all, a trumpet is just a piece of metal that only plays one tone (open), but when you manipulate the tone (valves) you can construct a melody. So, if a DJ can take a record that has just one tone on it and manipulate it to create a melody I don’t see how it can be disputed that a turntable is not an instrument.
Dalovindj–Cool. I like when people break their shit up!! 🙂
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### Author:  [@longjohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/longjohn)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/38 "2001-08-16T13:57:20Z")
Horhay,
Ooops, i see. Nice point.
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### Author:  [@VileOrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VileOrb)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2001, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/39 "2001-08-16T22:21:30Z")
OK, I wrote a really long post and submitted, but it timed out and was lost. I don’t have the time or the desire to completely recompose that monster post. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it.
I think the OED definition of music is too vague. My definition is vague enough. Music is melody plus rhythm, and some other stuff is optional.
Drums are very rarely melodic. Drum solos are, in most cases, not music by my definition. In order to qualify as melody, I think you should be able to convert it to notes and play it on a violin, or a trombone, or whatever. It will be very different on another instrument, but still recognizable as the same melody. Play “Happy Birthday” on a piano, then on a trumpet, then on a piccolo. It’s still the same melody. That CAN be done with drums. It just is not usually done. And it doesn’t really work all that well unless you include various piano-like instruments as a part of your drum kit. Or steel drums.
Sound does not have to be music in order to be beautiful and artistic.
Varying the speed of the turntable in order to play a melody is a way to se a turntable as a musical instrument. Playing bits of other people’s music in an esthetic way is not using the turntable as a musical instrument.
Control is an issue too. If there’s melody but you’re not in control of it, then you’re still not a musician. Otherwise, turning on a radio would make you a musician.
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### Author:  [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2001, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-turntables-be-considered-valid-instruments/76388/40 "2001-08-17T12:34:01Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by VileOrb \*
> **Drums are very rarely melodic. Drum solos are, in most cases, not music by my definition.**
There is musical notation for your standard rock-and-roll drum kit using a regular old five-bar staff, you know.
> [@](#):
>
> In order to qualify as melody, I think you should be able to convert it to notes and play it on a violin, or a trombone, or whatever. . . . That CAN be done with drums. It just is not usually done. And it doesn’t really work all that well unless you include various piano-like instruments as a part of your drum kit. Or steel drums.
Or tympani. Or Rototoms.
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