# Should U.S. police be given excess military weapons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938 "2017-08-28T15:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/1 "2017-08-28T15:06:24Z")
[Trump Orders Military To Give Cops Free Grenade Launchers, Bayonets, And Tanks](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-police-tanks_us_59a4052ee4b0821444c4869c?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009). Apparently Trump is going to overturn Obama’s executive order from a couple years back baring the military from handing over some types of surplus equipment. How do they justify needing such equipment? > [@](#): > > A Pentagon official couldn’t come up with a reason that a police officer would need a bayonet during a hearing on police militarization in 2014. But some law enforcement officials have suggested they could be used as utility knives, a view the Trump administration has adopted. Grenade launchers, meanwhile, can be used to fire off non-lethal weapons and tear gas canisters. That bit about the bayonets being used as utility knives sounds like a Monty Python sketch to me, complete with a “nudge nudge, wink wink”. Another part I disagree with is this: > [@](#): > > Trump’s executive order will also kill requirements that law enforcement agencies had to meet before obtaining helicopters, planes, riot helmets, batons, drones, armored and tactical vehicles, and explosives and pyrotechnics. Under Obama’s order, police departments had to get permission from their local government, complete training requirements and give a “persuasive” reason why they needed such equipment. No more. Does this mean that a police chief can take this military surplus and use it, and the mayor and/or city council has no say in the matter? Do you think this overturning was the right thing to do, or do you think it might cause problems? ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/2 "2017-08-28T15:15:39Z")
Now you’ve got me imagining an A-10 Warthog being used to resolve a hostage situation. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/3 "2017-08-28T15:18:57Z")
No. I believe that the militarisation of law enforcement is a significant factor in the current ‘shoot first, ask questions later’ mentality, which is a major factor in the problems between law enforcement and ‘civilians’. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/4 "2017-08-28T15:19:13Z")
You know that old saying: “Give a man a tank, and every problem is a war” Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/5 "2017-08-28T15:34:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does this mean that a police chief can take this military surplus and use it, and the mayor and/or city council has no say in the matter? I assume any municipal police chief can be fired and replaced by the city council / mayor / city manager if they get too far out of line with the desires of their bosses. In the case of sheriffs, they answer to their constituents like all elected officials. I’m not sure what the chain of command is for most state police organizations, but I’m confident they have to answer to someone as well. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/6 "2017-08-28T15:38:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I assume any municipal police chief can be fired and replaced by the city council / mayor / city manager if they get too far out of line with the desires of their bosses.\*\* In the case of sheriffs, they answer to their constituents like all elected officials.\*\* I’m not sure what the chain of command is for most state police organizations, but I’m confident they have to answer to someone as well. And that worked so well with Arpaio. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/7 "2017-08-28T15:47:27Z")
The bayonet thing is a red herring. A modern military bayonet is essentially a knife and are useful for any number of things. As for the militarization of police, I see the arguments against it. However, whether we like it or not, the police do at least need some heavy equipment to respond to incidents in Dallas and Orlando. They are going to get it anyways, and it makes financial sense to use Army surplus equipment. Removing a bureaucratic burden also makes sense unless we have some reason to think it was doing something useful. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/8 "2017-08-28T15:48:35Z")
In practice, bayonets nowadays mostly are used as utility knives, not as weapons. But if that’s what you actually use them for, then it’s probably more practical to just get utility knives (which I’m pretty sure most police already have anyway), not bayonets. They stick around in military use mostly just out of inertia, inertia which police departments don’t have. I suppose that I don’t see any problem in principle with police getting military surplus equipment at a steep discount or free, but in order for it to make sense, it has to be equipment that the police would actually have use for. And the police would have use for a number of military items: Rugged radios, phones, and other electronics, or body armor, or light arms come to mind. But tanks? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/9 "2017-08-28T15:58:07Z")
> [@treis](#): > > A modern military bayonet is essentially a knife and are useful for any number of things. I do not support the militarization of police forces, but I agree with other posters about the bayonet thing. A [standard issue bayonet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M7_bayonet) is specifically designed to double as a utility knife. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/10 "2017-08-28T16:01:52Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I do not support the militarization of police forces, but I agree with other posters about the bayonet thing. > > A [standard issue bayonet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M7_bayonet) is specifically designed to double as a utility knife. Give them a utility knife that cannot be used to double as a bayonet then. Do the police need bayonets? Do you believe that police will restrict the use of bayonets and NOT end up sticking people in the gut? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/11 "2017-08-28T16:08:14Z")
BY the way, just because a weapon can be used for a secondary purpose does not negate the fact that it can also be used for its primary purpose: bayonets can still stab people, grenade launchers can still launch grenades, and tanks…well, I cannot even come up with a supposedly reasonable secondary use for a tank that does not involve rampant destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/12 "2017-08-28T16:14:26Z")
The military weapons are more a symptom of the problem than the problem itself. The problem is a warrior mindset employed against a community that doesn’t trust the police, and generally employed in a way that is ineffective at reducing violence where that is most needed. Military weapons reflect that problem, and to some extent make community trust worse, but it’s a pretty marginal factor in the problem. Of course, the very fact that it’s symbolic is why Jeff Sessions wants to do it. It is the Jefferson Davis statue of police policy. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/13 "2017-08-28T16:22:17Z")
I can’t think of a reason police would need a giant non folding utility knife, much less one that is attached to a rifle. As to why they would need a tank? Steven Segal needs something to ride on! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/14 "2017-08-28T16:29:18Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The military weapons are more a symptom of the problem than the problem itself. > > The problem is a warrior mindset employed against a community that doesn’t trust the police, and generally employed in a way that is ineffective at reducing violence where that is most needed. Military weapons reflect that problem, and to some extent make community trust worse, but it’s a pretty marginal factor in the problem. I think that military weaponry facilitates the warrior mindset, and are not merely a symptom. Personally, I pin the start at the North Hollywood shootout in 1997, where police needed to borrow AR-15s from (now-closed) B & B Sales. There’s definitely a case to be made that the police need to outgun the bad guys. Prior to that, the old .38 Special was, for many departments, good enough. In the '60s and '70s there were SWATs to deal with more intense situations, and the teams were made popular in the 1975 TV series. I think that after the shootout, and with the War on Drugs, police departments wanted all of their officers to be virtual SWAT members. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/15 "2017-08-28T16:31:25Z")
Is there a use for a tank that doesn’t cause public and/or private damage? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/16 "2017-08-28T16:33:27Z")
I just read an interesting book on this topic, [The Rise of the Warrior Cop,](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=rise+of+the+warrior+cop) by Radley Balko. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/17 "2017-08-28T16:35:03Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I just read an interesting book on this topic, [The Rise of the Warrior Cop,](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=rise+of+the+warrior+cop) by Radley Balko. How close was I? ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/18 "2017-08-28T16:37:21Z")
In my experience the vast majority of equipment obtained from the military is not weaponry. Vehicles, helmets, uniforms (BDUs), surveillance equipment, load-bearing equipment etc. made up the bulk of what local agencies received. The whole “militarization” argument, IMHO, is based on how the cops LOOK when there are large scale disturbances. Almost all of that “look” is defensive in nature - helmets, shields, shin guards, armoured trucks and so on. I don’t recall seeing rocket launchers and belt fed machine guns but maybe I missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/19 "2017-08-28T16:41:36Z")
Short Answer: OH HELL NO. Longer answer: The militarization of the police has led to a more Us vs Them / Military Occupation mindset in American police. This is contrary to civilian rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/20 "2017-08-28T16:42:07Z")
How much does this order actually change, with respect to that practical equipment, though? The police probably doesn’t have that hard a time making a case for why they need helmets, and I imagine that most city councils would approve them, so they were already able to get them fairly easily. All this changes is for the equipment that the police can’t make a good case for, or that city councils wouldn’t approve. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938.md?page=2)