# Should U.S. police be given excess military weapons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938 "2017-08-28T15:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/21 "2017-08-28T16:46:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How much does this order actually change, with respect to that practical equipment, though? The police probably doesn’t have that hard a time making a case for why they need helmets, and I imagine that most city councils would approve them, so they were already able to get them fairly easily. All this changes is for the equipment that the police can’t make a good case for, or that city councils wouldn’t approve. City councils don’t have a say in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/22 "2017-08-28T16:49:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Give them a utility knife that cannot be used to double as a bayonet then. Do the police need bayonets? Do you believe that police will restrict the use of bayonets and NOT end up sticking people in the gut? I think it is enormously unlikely that cops will ever fix bayonets and start stabbing people. Beyond the realm of possibility unlikely. Certainly not worth the cost of buying knives when there are perfectly good ones they can be given for free. > [@Chronos](#): > > tanks…well, I cannot even come up with a supposedly reasonable secondary use for a tank that does not involve rampant destruction. They aren’t getting literal tanks like the Abrams. They are getting armored vehicles. Those can be useful in cases like Dallas or Orlando to provide cover and safe transportation. Also for crowd situations as a mobile barricade/firing point to stop the truck attacks we have seen. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/23 "2017-08-28T16:49:49Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > How close was I? You mean, how did North Hollywood figure in the book? Not a mention. Balko blames post-9-11 and drug wars as the primary catalysts. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/24 "2017-08-28T16:52:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How much does this order actually change, with respect to that practical equipment, though? The police probably doesn’t have that hard a time making a case for why they need helmets, and I imagine that most city councils would approve them, so they were already able to get them fairly easily. All this changes is for the equipment that the police can’t make a good case for, or that city councils wouldn’t approve. We don’t really know, because there was no baseline to track from. One of the findings of the report submitted to Obama was that we couldn’t really say what law enforcement agencies had what. Here’s the relevant [report](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/docs/le_equipment_wg_final_report_final.pdf). ETA: note that Obama did not take away access to the things MikeF identifies. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/25 "2017-08-28T17:06:18Z")
> [@treis](#): > > They aren’t getting literal tanks like the Abrams. They are getting armored vehicles. Those can be useful in cases like Dallas or Orlando to provide cover and safe transportation. Also for crowd situations as a mobile barricade/firing point to stop the truck attacks we have seen. This roll-back allows for weaponized armored transport(and I can’t find anything that would disallow actual tanks-cite please?), so what kinds of military weapons can we expect to find on these vehicles? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/26 "2017-08-28T17:12:47Z")
A nearby city from me has an APC. One of the police officers in the department had a kid that went to school with my kid, so for a birthday party the kids got a tour of the police department and rode around in it. I went inside too, this was pretty spartan, no mounted weapons or anything, just transport. I’m sure other cities are different. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/27 "2017-08-28T17:19:31Z")
The alternative would be to sell the surplus to civilians, sell it to ally nations, let it go to waste, or simply have the military hold on to the surplus stuff indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/28 "2017-08-28T17:21:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The alternative would be to sell the surplus to civilians, sell it to ally nations, let it go to waste, or simply have the military hold on to the surplus stuff indefinitely. Except for that first choice, it sounds good to me. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/29 "2017-08-28T17:30:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This roll-back allows for weaponized armored transport(and I can’t find anything that would disallow actual tanks-cite please?), It’s your thread. You’re the one that should be ponying up cites. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > so what kinds of military weapons can we expect to find on these vehicles? They aren’t like tanks where the gun is integral to the vehicle. There are weapons platforms that usually have grenade launchers and machine guns. Brief googling yields many examples of these types of vehicles without mounted weapons and none with any. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/30 "2017-08-28T17:35:20Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s your thread. You’re the one that should be ponying up cites. I already provided a cite for the weaponized armored vehicle claim. Where is yous that it won’t include tanks? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/31 "2017-08-28T17:37:35Z")
Giving surplus military equipment to law enforcement is simply practical sense. It can save money at the local police level and if someone is intimidated by a police officer wearing different helmets or body armor than usual - well, they’ll have to deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/32 "2017-08-28T17:41:16Z")
In an era where crime is down to the levels of 50 years ago, and job-related deaths to law enforcement officers have declined even more so, it strikes me as quite insane that anyone sees a need for police to get all this high-powered stuff. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/33 "2017-08-28T17:43:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Giving surplus military equipment to law enforcement is simply practical sense. It can save money at the local police level and if someone is intimidated by a police officer wearing different helmets or body armor than usual - well, they’ll have to deal with it. Yeah, if we’re intimidated by the people we’ve paid to protect us, then that’s _our_ problem! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/34 "2017-08-28T17:44:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Giving surplus military equipment to law enforcement is simply practical sense. It can save money at the local police level and if someone is intimidated by a police officer wearing different helmets or body armor than usual - well, they’ll have to deal with it. Except the police/deputies are like, ‘Hey, if someone is intimidated by my appearance and submachine gun… ha-_HA!_ Lowlife scum! YOU WILL SUBMIT TO MAH AUTHRITAH!’ Yes, law enforcement needs _some_ military equipment _sometimes_. But equipping them like Seal Team Six feeds their bad behaviour. ‘Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.’ ETA: Or what **Rufus** said. . ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/35 "2017-08-28T17:45:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I already provided a cite for the weaponized armored vehicle claim. Where is yous that it won’t include tanks? Where is yours that it does? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/36 "2017-08-28T17:49:32Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And that worked so well with Arpaio. Was this sarcasm or serious? AFAIK, he got fired by the voters, so yeah, it seems to have worked well. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > This roll-back allows for weaponized armored transport(and I can’t find anything that would disallow actual tanks-cite please?), so what kinds of military weapons can we expect to find on these vehicles? You be sure to let us know when the first police department gets an [Abrams](http://www.military.com/equipment/m1a2-abrams-main-battle-tank), okay? Until then, all this silly scare-mongering over “tanks” is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/37 "2017-08-28T17:50:25Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > In an era where crime is down to the levels of 50 years ago, and job-related deaths to law enforcement officers have declined even more so, it strikes me as quite insane that anyone sees a need for police to get all this high-powered stuff. It isn’t so much that there is a _need_, as it is that it is more practical for the equipment to be used by police than to be sitting unused in a warehouse. A local firefighting department may not \*need \*a military fire truck that has done service in Iraq, but it would be better off having it than for the fire truck to go to waste. (Assuming it’s not a burden on logistics and maintenance.) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/38 "2017-08-28T17:51:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I already provided a cite for the weaponized armored vehicle claim. … Where? I missed it. Please give me a post # or quote from the cite, or something, anything really. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/39 "2017-08-28T17:54:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Czarcasm** : > > City councils don’t have a say in the matter. They don’t now, as of this new executive order, but one of the quotes in your OP says that under Obama, they needed to get approval from local government. So if the city council would say no to some particular piece of equipment, then under Obama, they couldn’t get it, but under Trump, they can. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938/40 "2017-08-28T17:55:58Z")
Our military may or may not give away Abrams because the current model is still being used heavily, so I doubt there is much of a surplus to give away…unlike the 2300 M1 models and 4300 M1A2 models currently unused and in storage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-u-s-police-be-given-excess-military-weapons/794938.md?page=3)