# Should universities focus more on programs that lead to specific career goals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018 "2018-03-22T12:57:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/121 "2018-04-03T17:32:29Z")
I’m sorry, do profs pitch courses to high school seniors where you live? What silliness. Kids choose course out of catalogues, they don’t read adverts from profs. Kids headed to university are old enough to make their own choices (and decide what they want to go into debt for), if they’re old enough to go in the army. If they don’t comprehend the debt how will they comprehend they could die? More really silly thinking in my opinion. And who gets to decide if the student, ‘has a passion for it’? Is there a means test for that? More utter silliness. Which part of there’s already plenty of such pressure on high school seniors, don’t you understand? If, in today’s environment they still want to pursue an English degree then it’s nobody’s business but theirs. By what reasoning should your opinion count? Talk about your nanny state, sheesh. Protecting adults old enough to go to war from choosing their uni courses. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/122 "2018-04-03T18:22:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I bet admissions officers wish they were as clever as you make them out to be. > Don’t forget the halo effect and the networking effect. The best universities offer advantages beyond education. Most employers, if they see two equivalent resumes one from a Harvard grad and one from a Podunk U grad are going to go with the Harvard grad -especially right out of school. (After 20 years it won’t matter so much.) People assume graduates from top schools are smarter, right or not. > I’ve benefited from this myself, and so have other members of my family. The main thrust of my argument here has been about the intrinsic value of a broad, well-rounded education – especially at the undergraduate level – whether or not the student also has a career-focused specialty. My comment about the Ivy League was a bit of a digression that occurred to me because of the discussions here about cost, and they are certainly among the most expensive schools in the nation. Which raises the questions, do you get a better education there, and does it improve your odds of career success? My anecdotal experience with the general “education” question as it applies to undergraduate programs is that it depends on the extent to which the institution values those programs compared to their investments in research and postgraduate studies. As for career success, I agree with your arguments about the cachet of an Ivy League or equivalent big-name degree and the potential value of the contacts one makes there. But I would draw your attention to this _New Yorker_ article about the selection bias I was talking about: [The social logic of Ivy League admissions](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/10/10/getting-in). The point of it being that the selection of candidates likely to be prominently successful is so important to the school that it overwhelms all other considerations, and has become entrenched in the nation’s top-tier academic culture. The article cites a study comparing two groups who both successfully ran the admissions gauntlet and were accepted at Ivy League schools – one group that attended, and one that declined and the candidates went to “lesser” schools. Significantly, members of both groups did about equally well in their careers. > [@spifflog](#): > > “Mercenary terms,” interesting way to put it. > > As a liberal arts guy, I agree with part of this (that’s why I put “pay dividends” to include more than just the money). But the cost needs to play more of a part than it does to many today in my opinion. I don’t disagree that, as a purely practical matter, at some level cost has to be considered, and in fact I argue above that for some students, in some circumstances, the incremental cost of a prestigious top-tier college may not provide a concomitant incremental value. What I objected to was your implication (at least in my reading of it) in your post #106 that the monetary payback was the _ **only** _ criterion by which to judge a college education, something I strongly disagree with, and hence my use of the dismissive phrase “mercenary terms”. You appear to be backing off that now, and I agree, but this is what you said (emphasis mine): “College is an investment **pure and simple**. If you think the investment to the expensive school will pay dividends over your life, go there. If not, pick another one. If you think you’re major will pay dividends over your life, go there. If not, pick another one. This is arguably **the second most expensive decision you’ll ever make**.” So, my apologies if I misread your comments, but that does strike me as being entirely about money. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I’m not afraid of history, english, and the humanities. Perhaps you’re not “afraid” of them, but the pertinent question is, do you value them as important and indeed essential aspects of a well-rounded college education? > [@Shodan](#): > > I can see the advantages of saying “You are going to major in theater arts - we won’t lend you tuition money unless somebody co-signs the loan, or unless you have enough assets to secure the loan in case you declare bankruptcy”. The disadvantage is that there won’t be any theater arts majors, or at least a lot fewer of them. > > Banks don’t want to lose money. If the bankruptcy laws are set up such that they probably won’t get paid back, with interest, they won’t make the loan. > > … If we make student loans dischargeable thru bankruptcy, then banks are going to adjust. If we don’t, then students will have to adjust. Neither of them is going to like it. First of all personal bankruptcy is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, it has huge long-term financial impacts and is extremely disruptive on many levels. The only reason it exists is for pragmatic and humanitarian reasons, since we don’t have 19th century debtor’s prisons and Dickensian workhouses any more. No one declares personal bankruptcy casually, and it makes no sense to me to exempt perfectly ordinary financial transactions from bankruptcy protection. That aside, you’re right that in many cases banks may consider student loans too risky to undertake without a co-signer’s guarantee. But where in your business calculus do you factor in the public interest in having our future generations well educated? When that is considered, it’s clear that the co-signer should be the government. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/123 "2018-04-03T18:44:15Z")
Perhaps part of the problem is that there is a cultural bias that to be educated, one needs to go to university at all. There are many important and rewarding careers requiring skill but not book-smarts, and students should be made more aware of these options in trades and business. I know many university students who went on to these careers after an expensive degree. Expanding human knowledge, which I take to be a good thing, requires people passionate about their field, whatever that may be. So I do think universities should offer as much as possible even if it is not CURRENTLY seen as important — how many people underestimated the skills useful today 20-30 years ago? There might be something to be said for minimizing excessive profits on student loans, providing more financial information with potential mismatches, making degrees more flexible when possible and allowing more of a “common year” before having to make a decision. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/124 "2018-04-03T18:58:11Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No one declares personal bankruptcy casually, and it makes no sense to me to exempt perfectly ordinary financial transactions from bankruptcy protection. However we decide to treat student loans, whether dischargeable thru bankruptcy or not, the market will adjust. No one is claiming it will be a casual decision. > [@](#): > > That aside, you’re right that in many cases banks may consider student loans too risky to undertake without a co-signer’s guarantee. But where in your business calculus do you factor in the public interest in having our future generations well educated? If I am a bank, not at all. If I loan money as a business, and future generations don’t pay me back when they borrow money, I won’t be in business for long. > [@](#): > > When that is considered, it’s clear that the co-signer should be the government. I don’t think it is clear. The benefits of having any degree, vs. a degree with a reasonable chance of getting employed so you can pay back your loans, have not been demonstrated to my satisfaction. If the benefits of a well educated public are a function of the classes outside of job training, well and good - a student can major in something employable, and still get the well roundedness in his other classes. Vs. someone who is well-rounded and unemployable. You can have both A and B, or just B. If a student wants to roll the dice and get a degree in English, that’s fine, but I don’t see why the government should foot the bill if he comes up snake eyes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/125 "2018-04-03T18:58:25Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I’m sorry, do profs pitch courses to high school seniors where you live? What silliness. Kids choose course out of catalogues, they don’t read adverts from profs. > > Kids headed to university are old enough to make their own choices (and decide what they want to go into debt for), if they’re old enough to go in the army. If they don’t comprehend the debt how will they comprehend they could die? More really silly thinking in my opinion. > > And who gets to decide if the student, ‘has a passion for it’? Is there a means test for that? More utter silliness. > > Which part of there’s already plenty of such pressure on high school seniors, don’t you understand? If, in today’s environment they still want to pursue an English degree then it’s nobody’s business but theirs. By what reasoning should your opinion count? > > Talk about your nanny state, sheesh. Protecting adults old enough to go to war from choosing their uni courses. You do realize these are the same colleges who just a few years ago, sat back and allowed credit card companies to come in and sign students up for credit cards with $10,000 limits and whopping interest rates? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/126 "2018-04-03T19:13:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > However we decide to treat student loans, whether dischargeable thru bankruptcy or not, the market will adjust. No one is claiming it will be a casual decision. > If I am a bank, not at all. If I loan money as a business, and future generations don’t pay me back when they borrow money, I won’t be in business for long. > I don’t think it is clear. The benefits of having any degree, vs. a degree with a reasonable chance of getting employed so you can pay back your loans, have not been demonstrated to my satisfaction. > > If the benefits of a well educated public are a function of the classes outside of job training, well and good - a student can major in something employable, and still get the well roundedness in his other classes. Vs. someone who is well-rounded and unemployable. You can have both A and B, or just B. If a student wants to roll the dice and get a degree in English, that’s fine, but I don’t see why the government should foot the bill if he comes up snake eyes. > > Regards, > Shodan What if someone wants to be an English teacher? Or sees the English degree as a component of the larger plan to be a lawyer? You can be an English major and have a solid career plan. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/127 "2018-04-03T19:18:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Perhaps you’re not “afraid” of them, but the pertinent question is, do you value them as important and indeed essential aspects of a well-rounded college education? > . You do realize your talking classes that cost on average, [$594 an hour](https://studentloanhero.com/featured/cost-per-credit-hour-study/)? So english composition I, II, and III at 3 credits each comes to $5,394. World history alone at 3 credits is $1,782. And how MANY credits of those things do they need before you FINALLY think they are “well rounded”? 3 hours? 6 hours? 9 hours? I had to take 9 hours of English comp and I think 9 of history. Plus I think 6 of fine arts, humanities and others. And remember they were supposed to learn much of this in high school. Well if I was a college humanities professor, and I wanted to keep my job, I’d make them take as many as I could. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/128 "2018-04-03T19:29:54Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You do realize these are the same colleges who just a few years ago, sat back and allowed credit card companies to come in and sign students up for credit cards with $10,000 limits and whopping interest rates? They did that when I was at the uni, 25+ yrs ago… Kids were mostly smart enough to avoid that pitfall. And if they’re not they should be, if they are smart enough to qualify for university. They don’t do it anymore anyway. Not sure what point you think this makes. You want them savvy enough to avoid that pitfall parent them, it’s not the university’s job. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/129 "2018-04-03T19:32:43Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > “Mercenary terms,” interesting way to put it. > > As a liberal arts guy, I agree with part of this (that’s why I put “pay dividends” to include more than just the money). But the cost needs to play more of a part than it does to many today in my opinion. I read and hear about “the college experience” all the time, and I read and hear about the mountain of debt college students have and why won’t someone (the government?) do something about it so it’s a problem for many > > I lived near an Ivy League school growing up but didn’t go there. I’m in my 50s now and I have one friend who thinks she’s still behind due to the loan she had to pay off for so long. Sure she has an English degree from Yale, but it’s absolutely never paid for itself, and while it’s cool, she’s not convinced that it was worth it. But she was 18, she was accepted and could get the loans so off she went. > > As I’ve moved through life, I know some amazing people who are kicking ass from Penn and Yale. I know some amazing people who are kicking ass from schools I’ve never heard of, and I’ve lived all over the country. What you do in school, and what you make of it when you’re there is the important part. I’ve had a number of jobs and one - my first one - was the only one that wanted to see my transcripts. Yes the school is important, but is it worth the total cost? > > The money isn’t all of the equation, but it’ a big part of it, and it gets ignored until it’s too late. You’re also pointing out that people get closed out of education due to their parent’s financial situation. Regardless of what the degree might be, dollars are a serious factor. And, while some technocrat could decide that we can reserve English for the elite, we’re doing a more thorough job than that of discouraging people from 4 year degrees by using financial requirements. Economic competition is moving toward information, innovation, high tech, automation and other areas where more education is required - where the raw material is brains. This country has only 5% of that required natural resource. Failing to maximize the use of our 5% is a big mistake. While OK, WVa, Kentucky and my state of WA are not doing a good job, other nations are seriously stepping up their game. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/130 "2018-04-03T20:36:59Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > What if someone wants to be an English teacher? Or sees the English degree as a component of the larger plan to be a lawyer? Then you will have to decide if you will make enough as a teacher or a lawyer to pay off whatever you borrowed. You might guess right. Or you might not. Watch the Dave Ramsey video **Urbanredneck** linked to. Was playing water polo worth $145K? If you guess right, good for you. If you guess wrong, you’re an adult and you will have to live with the consequences. I heard a lot of complaining about how Wall Street wanted to privatize success and socialize failure. If it’s a bad idea for banks, why is it not a bad idea for students? Because they are now well-rounded adults? Adults pay for their own mistakes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/131 "2018-04-03T20:45:14Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And remember they were supposed to learn much of this in high school. Are you saying there’s no difference between a high-school level history class and a college-level one? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/132 "2018-04-03T21:09:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then you will have to decide if you will make enough as a teacher or a lawyer to pay off whatever you borrowed. You might guess right. Or you might not. Watch the Dave Ramsey video **Urbanredneck** linked to. Was playing water polo worth $145K? > > If you guess right, good for you. If you guess wrong, you’re an adult and you will have to live with the consequences. > > I heard a lot of complaining about how Wall Street wanted to privatize success and socialize failure. If it’s a bad idea for banks, why is it not a bad idea for students? Because they are now well-rounded adults? Adults pay for their own mistakes. > > Regards, > Shodan I thought the argument was that banks should be doing a better job of deciding whether to loan money to a person based on the potential ROI of their degrees? The analogy was that we don’t loan money to small businesses without seeing a solid business plan, why don’t we expect that for student loans? My point is that the degree itself may make less of a difference than the person getting it: a person majoring in English might be more likely to pay back the money than the person majoring in EE if the former is more practical and focused. My second point was that using “English degree” as shorthand for “useless, unemployable major” is sloppy. And English degree can absolutely be part of a practical, rational approach to a well-paying job. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/133 "2018-04-03T21:11:02Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Are you saying there’s no difference between a high-school level history class and a college-level one? It sounds like at KU there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/134 "2018-04-03T22:37:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then you will have to decide if you will make enough as a teacher or a lawyer to pay off whatever you borrowed. You might guess right. Or you might not. Watch the Dave Ramsey video **Urbanredneck** linked to. Was playing water polo worth $145K? > > If you guess right, good for you. If you guess wrong, you’re an adult and you will have to live with the consequences. > > I heard a lot of complaining about how Wall Street wanted to privatize success and socialize failure. If it’s a bad idea for banks, why is it not a bad idea for students? Because they are now well-rounded adults? Adults pay for their own mistakes. > > Regards, > Shodan By blocking the kids of low income parents from an equal shot at success, we harness the power of our economy behind the growth of socialized failure. I don’t see the growth of socialized failure as a legitimate objective for America. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/135 "2018-04-03T23:19:28Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > By blocking the kids of low income parents from an equal shot at success, we harness the power of our economy behind the growth of socialized failure. > > I don’t see the growth of socialized failure as a legitimate objective for America. I don’t think we block low income kids from their shot at success by not giving them a private corporate loan so they can major in Theatre Arts. I went back to school in my 40s and got an Accounting degree - taking two classes a Semester year round with a bunch of other working adults. Who were also taking two classes a semester and working full time. And paying a rather small tuition - it being a state school. I graduated with people who had been slogging away at their degree for ten or more years (a lot of them were getting it paid for by their employers) I really value a liberal arts education (B.A. Art History, minors in Russian Area Studies and Women’s Studies - which served me very well - it was ten years post graduation with the Accounting degree that I ever used it - and that was to run a small business that pays WAY less than I made as a corporate Program Manager), but saying “hey, if you want a loan, you are going to have to have a career plan that shows you are going to be able to pay back the loan we give you” isn’t unreasonable. If you can make the case to the loan officer that your talent is such that a theatre arts major will make them their money back - or perhaps that you are hard working and smart and are going to a school with great placement records and that while you might not end up making your living in theatre, any B.A. degree will be a good investment - great. But you might have to do what I’m making my daughter do - major in something a LITTLE more practical (Public Policy) and get a minor in Theatre if that is what floats your boat. (Or education, although granted, teachers aren’t making enough to pay back their loans). I do think we need to increase the amount of grants available to low and MIDDLE income people for education. And we need to do a better job funding our state college and university system so it is “affordable.” But I don’t really see the issue in a corporation not giving someone a $52k a year loan to major in Theatre at NYU. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/136 "2018-04-03T23:34:14Z")
No. If what you’re looking for is vocational training, go to trade school or take a training course. A university education is about training your mind. The idea that a liberal arts degree is useless is an idiotic idea. People I know who studied liberal arts know how to learn, they know how to read, they know how to communicate, they know how to write, they know how to think. A liberal arts degree is not about what facts are being poured into your head. It’s about learning how to approach the world with a mind ready to learn and do something worth that knowledge. Engineers, for example, are useless except for accomplishing discrete, limited goals. Present an engineer with a large complex problem with a variety of considerations, including technical, financial, legal, social, etc., an engineer will invariably fail to recognize anything but the technical aspect. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/137 "2018-04-04T00:22:02Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I don’t think we block low income kids from their shot at success by not giving them a private corporate loan so they can major in Theatre Arts. > > I went back to school in my 40s and got an Accounting degree - taking two classes a Semester year round with a bunch of other working adults. Who were also taking two classes a semester and working full time. And paying a rather small tuition - it being a state school. I graduated with people who had been slogging away at their degree for ten or more years (a lot of them were getting it paid for by their employers) > > I really value a liberal arts education (B.A. Art History, minors in Russian Area Studies and Women’s Studies - which served me very well - it was ten years post graduation with the Accounting degree that I ever used it - and that was to run a small business that pays WAY less than I made as a corporate Program Manager), but saying “hey, if you want a loan, you are going to have to have a career plan that shows you are going to be able to pay back the loan we give you” isn’t unreasonable. If you can make the case to the loan officer that your talent is such that a theatre arts major will make them their money back - or perhaps that you are hard working and smart and are going to a school with great placement records and that while you might not end up making your living in theatre, any B.A. degree will be a good investment - great. But you might have to do what I’m making my daughter do - major in something a LITTLE more practical (Public Policy) and get a minor in Theatre if that is what floats your boat. (Or education, although granted, teachers aren’t making enough to pay back their loans). > > I do think we need to increase the amount of grants available to low and MIDDLE income people for education. And we need to do a better job funding our state college and university system so it is “affordable.” But I don’t really see the issue in a corporation not giving someone a $52k a year loan to major in Theatre at NYU. Good for you - a clear success. For the kids my high school teacher daughter councils, it’s really not enough to just offer loans. The catch is, that coming from a low income background there really is limited understanding of how to value going to college after high school. So, penciling out the risk is not something they know how to do. Plus, that demographic can’t withstand the possibility of failure. Not everyone graduates, obviously. And, you owe the money even if you don’t get the degree. One seriously bright kid my daughter counselled stated flatly that there was NO WAY he was going to college. The reason? He knew more than one case of someone borrowing that kind of money and ending up DEAD because of that decision. She had other parents who simply refused to sign ANY document that related to finance - including declaring their kid to be financially independent. Thus, the kid could get NO financial aid. She says this is not at all uncommon. She had kids who were accepted to good schools, but had to decline, because the student housing closed during vacations and the family had no money for hotels or transportation home. We tend to forget that those loan amounts didn’t cover all expenses. Your grant idea helps these cases, obviously. Without that kind of support, kids from low income segments of our society are excluded. And, the result is that their inherited financial position is more frequently perpetuated. I think we have to remember that the difference between a college education and a high school education averages about $1M over working period (the taxes of which pays for whatever we gave in education funding). So, the USA gets the benefit of their work product. And, out of the segment that gets no college, some number end up on the dole. We citizens benefit by encouraging those successes and doing what we can to limit those failures. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/138 "2018-04-04T01:01:13Z")
But having them spend $52k a year for an NYU Theatre degree is not setting them up for success either. Its setting them up for declaring bankruptcy which is going to not going to end economic disparity. (About half of the students in my night school courses were immigrants - 1st generation or 2nd generation. Usually from parts of Africa. My husband is a low income graduate of an inner city high school. My kid’s school is over 50% free and reduced lunch - I do understand the problems - I just think open access to private student loans is a problem - not a solution) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/139 "2018-04-04T02:03:14Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I do think we need to increase the amount of grants available to low and MIDDLE income people for education. And we need to do a better job funding our state college and university system so it is “affordable.” But I don’t really see the issue in a corporation not giving someone a $52k a year loan to major in Theatre at NYU. Ok, lets say a state, any state, sends a university more money. Do you honestly think the college administration will use any of that money so that tuition will drop even a single dollar? Fact is college costs what it does because colleges know students will find the money - somehow. Often its in the form of loans. Oh here is a novel idea - reduce the number of credit hours (again - $576 per hour) needed for graduation! Maybe they will only need 3 hours of college english instead of 9! Maybe only 3 of history and humanities! Maybe drop the fine arts requirement! Nah - those college professors need the money. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018/140 "2018-04-04T02:12:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No. > > If what you’re looking for is vocational training, go to trade school or take a training course. > > A university education is about training your mind. > > The idea that a liberal arts degree is useless is an idiotic idea. People I know who studied liberal arts know how to learn, they know how to read, they know how to communicate, they know how to write, they know how to think. A liberal arts degree is not about what facts are being poured into your head. It’s about learning how to approach the world with a mind ready to learn and do something worth that knowledge. Yeah they better learn. Learn how to pay off $150,000 worth of loans on a $35,000 salary while trying to start a family and live in an expensive city. Oh they will learn to read. Read the bill coming due for their loans every month for the next 10-20 years! Communicate? Sure. Learn to ask to move back into their parents homes. Learn to practically beg for money to pay the rent. And that “trained mind” will come in real handy working all those part time jobs with the other english majors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-universities-focus-more-on-programs-that-lead-to-specific-career-goals/811018.md?page=8)