# Should US high schools drop sports?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 19, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037 "2020-09-19T22:48:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/242 "2020-09-30T21:24:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> This is not necessarily the case. In fact, friendly networking has landed me way more jobs than competitive interviews every could. And I’ve never competed with anyone for a promotion.
That’s great for you but the majority of job seekers are not so privileged to have connections that will automatically land them a job. Oh, and and over reliance on friendly networking for jobs tends to be somewhat discriminatory in nature.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> They can learn both of these from ordinary games and friendly intramurals, as opposed to competitive inter-school team sports.
They can also learn them from orchestra, band, art, Quiz Bowl, etc., etc. So what? Nobody here is arguing that you can’t learn these things in other places. But if that’s the criteria we’re going to apply here then let’s consider why we need orchestras or bands. After all, students can learn those things elsewhere. There’s no reason to offer them in schools.
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### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/243 "2020-09-30T21:40:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> In fact, friendly networking has landed me way more jobs than competitive interviews every could.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> And I’ve never competed with anyone for a promotion.
I’m not sure what you mean by that- do you mean that there was never anyone else who was interested in the same promotion/job you were interested in ? Because that’s pretty much the only way an interview or a promotion can be completely non-competitive. After all, in most circumstances, your network connection gets you the interview, not the job. You still are competing with the other candidates. And if you got the job/promotion without any interview because someone is “looking out for you” , that doesn’t mean the other people who were also interested weren’t competing with you - it just mean the race was fixed and they had no chance of winning.
Or do you have some restricted definition of “competing” in an employment context that doesn’t include presenting yourself as the best and most valuable candidate?
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/244 "2020-09-30T21:40:27Z")
They need more than that. They need to learn to regulate and control the competitive instinct with a lot more nuance than just being a gracious winner and a good loser: they need to be able to turn it on and off, and to recognize when it’s appropriate and when it’s not.
I’ve been involved in high schools in some form or fashion for most of my life. I’ve seen all sorts of competitions coached, sports and others. I’ve coached lots of things, though not sports. There’s no guidance on helping kids learn to be good at competition. If it’s taught at all, it’s done haphazardly. More often than not, it’s done in a way that is counterproductive, with the focus on inspiring kids to win, with the win as the point.
The ideal here is just not realized, and holding on to the ideal to preserve toxic practice seems problematic.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/245 "2020-09-30T22:41:28Z")
> [@MandaJo](#):
>
> They need more than that. They need to learn to regulate and control the competitive instinct with a lot more nuance than just being a gracious winner and a good loser: they need to be able to turn it on and off, and to recognize when it’s appropriate and when it’s not.
To me, that’s just part of learning how to cope with losing and being a gracious winner.
> [@MandaJo](#):
>
> The ideal here is just not realized, and holding on to the ideal to preserve toxic practice seems problematic.
Fair enough. You didn’t think I was advocating preserving any toxic practice did you?
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/246 "2020-09-30T23:04:55Z")
Well, in the majority of the cases, toxicity is built in at the institutional level.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/247 "2020-09-30T23:17:26Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> > [@MandaJo](#):
> >
> > They need more than that. They need to learn to regulate and control the competitive instinct with a lot more nuance than just being a gracious winner and a good loser: they need to be able to turn it on and off, and to recognize when it’s appropriate and when it’s not.
>
> To me, that’s just part of learning how to cope with losing and being a gracious winner.
I don’t see how recognizing when competition’s not the appropriate mode is part of learning how to cope with losing and winning.
Learning how to cope with losing and winning presupposes that there were losers and winners in the first place.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2020, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/248 "2020-09-30T23:56:37Z")
The most successful people don’t compete with others for jobs. They create jobs that didn’t even exist before.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/249 "2020-10-01T08:47:23Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> That’s great for you but the majority of job seekers are not so privileged to have connections that will automatically land them a job. Oh, and and over reliance on friendly networking for jobs tends to be somewhat discriminatory in nature.
I’m not talking about nepotism, I’m talking about networking. Going to user group meetups and the like. Staying in touch with the people from your uni classes. There’s nothing discriminatory about a company hiring a specific person for a specific job.
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> Nobody here is arguing that you can’t learn these things in other places.
Well, then, we don’t need sports.
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> After all, students can learn those things elsewhere. There’s no reason to offer them in schools.
They’re generally _extramurals_ here (and in Finland!), unlike sports.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/250 "2020-10-01T08:49:59Z")
> [@doreen](#):
>
> I’m not sure what you mean by that- do you mean that there was never anyone else who was interested in the same promotion/job you were interested in ?
I was offered the jobs directly, there were no other candidates. They had a need, and they knew I filled it.
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/251 "2020-10-01T10:55:53Z")
> [@Trom](#):
>
> And I’ve got literally hundreds of anecdotes from my personal life of genuine, honest goodwill between opposing teams. I’ve also seen fights break out between players on the same team.
The thing is, specifically for high school sports, it’s not just about the team. It’s about the whole school. By far, the most unsportsmanlike stuff I’ve seen has been from fans, but those fans are the consequence of the way sports functions within the institution, where winning in sports is seen as a matter of face. And it’s perpetuated by parents who have an absolute hissy fit if the sports program isn’t constantly improving, up to and including aggressively pushing to fire coaches and principals they feel are not compliant enough or effective enough. I have seen more people, from teachers to teacher’s aides, to principals, lose their jobs to sports-related stuff than any other single cause.
There may be a proportional, effective way to have sports in high school. We are so far from that now that it’s really besides the point. It’s like a raging alcoholic pointing out that drinking has a net positive impact in the lives of many people. Absolutely true, and totally irrelevant.
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### Author:  [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/252 "2020-10-01T11:19:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> The most successful people don’t compete with others for jobs. They create jobs that didn’t even exist before.
Tell that to Tim Cook.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/253 "2020-10-01T13:10:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> The most successful people don’t compete with others for jobs. They create jobs that didn’t even exist before.
How many of us are the most successful people who create jobs that didn’t exist before?
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/254 "2020-10-01T13:16:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Well, then, we don’t need sports.
That’s fine. Just so long as you apply that line of reasoning to other programs including art, music, debate, etc., etc.
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### Author:  [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/255 "2020-10-01T13:51:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> The most successful people don’t compete with others for jobs. They create jobs that didn’t even exist before.
Arguably true for _the_ _most_ successful, but not for most successful people. Excluding those 1,000 people (probably fewer) the remaining 7,815,578,000 in the world are faced with a competitive landscape.
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### Author:  [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/256 "2020-10-01T14:18:44Z")
> [@MandaJo](#):
>
> The thing is, specifically for high school sports, it’s not just about the team. It’s about the whole school. By far, the most unsportsmanlike stuff I’ve seen has been from fans, but those fans are the consequence of the way sports functions within the institution, where winning in sports is seen as a matter of face. And it’s perpetuated by parents who have an absolute hissy fit if the sports program isn’t constantly improving, up to and including aggressively pushing to fire coaches and principals they feel are not compliant enough or effective enough. I have seen more people, from teachers to teacher’s aides, to principals, lose their jobs to sports-related stuff than any other single cause.
>
> There may be a proportional, effective way to have sports in high school. We are so far from that now that it’s really besides the point. It’s like a raging alcoholic pointing out that drinking has a net positive impact in the lives of many people. Absolutely true, and totally irrelevant.
Fights would happen if the team was run thru the school or thru a private league. Coaches and persons involved with leagues or programs would also gain or lose jobs.
Your right and I would like to take sports out of schools and make them private. This way issues with sports dont carry over to the schools.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/257 "2020-10-01T15:20:49Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> That’s fine. Just so long as you apply that line of reasoning to other programs including art, music, debate, etc., etc.
My line of reasoning is “we don’t need sports _because we have these other places kids can learn healthy competition_ without the negatives of team sports”, so applying that line of reasoning gets me to a place where we _keep_ debate, music and arts. So I’m good.
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/258 "2020-10-01T18:53:56Z")
I honestly think 90% of the toxicity would go away if there was no post-season. It’s the playoff, endlessly raising the stakes, that causes the problem.
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### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/259 "2020-10-01T20:21:30Z")
> [@MandaJo](#):
>
> the expectations on coaches-- especially of high profile sports–are often insane. Especially when you are in season, it’s not a job, It’s a lifestyle.
Amen. My brother is actually a social studies teacher (history/government), the social studies department head, and a JV soccer coach at our old high school. It’s a LOT of time, even relative to other teachers (my mother was a teacher as well), as he has all the academic stuff AND another hour and a half after school minimum of coaching stuff. Plus stuff like games on weekends and in other cities, etc…
He actually started off as a football coach during the fall, a soccer coach during the winter, and a track coach during the spring, but the demands were too high- he was having to do all the normal teaching stuff, then coach the freshman team, AND then review film for the varsity team. He was working 12 hour days and good sized chunks of the weekends during the season, and it ended up taking a toll on his relationship, so he shifted down into only non-varsity soccer, which he liked the most anyway. He still works a whole lot, but it’s a manageable amount, and not all school-year long.
Prior to the school’s admission to the UIL, they had a fair number of what I’d call “adjunct” coaches- they weren’t on the school faculty, but were paid a stipend to coach various sports, usually as assistant coaches at lower levels. So while a lot of the teachers were also coaches, it wasn’t a requirement.
But when my brother was hired, the school had just been admitted to the UIL, and the rules are something like the coaches also have to be teachers, so they kind of abruptly slapped the coaching requirements onto the everyday teachers, which is why he ended up coaching so much out of the gate. I think they ended up hiring some additional teacher/coaches as well to comply with the rules and not drive off the other teachers.
> [@SanVito](#):
>
> I guess the big difference, it sounds like, is the level of support the school teams gather. Very few people outside the school take any interest in school sports,
The thing to keep in mind is that it’s just a matter of emphasis. In the UK, is it not hte case that there’s a whole level of teenage football/soccer that is followed by people in the community, especially in more rural areas? I imagine that takes the form of the youth teams of various soccer clubs.
Here, that same level of sport is generally managed and affiliated with the schools, and in smaller areas, it’s the only local sport around, so it’s very community-oriented. Same thing really with the collegiate sports teams - ours are done by the colleges, while in the UK, I suspect that the levels below the Premier League serve the same purpose, with the League Championship corresponding roughly to the Power 5 conferences, League One to the rest of NCAA Div 1, and so on…
In larger cities though, high school sports are just something that’s reported in the newspaper, gets 5 minutes on the nightly news, and the players are noted for later monitoring for major college recruiting. I couldn’t tell you whether my local high school had any winning seasons, much less other schools in the district. At best, I’ve picked up which teams are perennially good by watching the television news.
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/260 "2020-10-01T22:09:40Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> In larger cities though, high school sports are just something that’s reported in the newspaper, gets 5 minutes on the nightly news, and the players are noted for later monitoring for major college recruiting. I couldn’t tell you whether my local high school had any winning seasons, much less other schools in the district. At best, I’ve picked up which teams are perennially good by watching the television news.
When Dallas ISD announced that they were going to start school remotely, the DMN ran two separate front page stories based on the same press conference: one, what they were going to do about schools in general and two, what they were going to to about sports practice and games and the implications for the football season.
Sports are not a big deal to as high a % of the population, but the absolute number of people who are really, really, really into HS sports is very high in city schools, and they wield a lot of influence.
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### Author:  [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-us-high-schools-drop-sports/921037/261 "2020-10-02T07:55:09Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> The thing to keep in mind is that it’s just a matter of emphasis. In the UK, is it not hte case that there’s a whole level of teenage football/soccer that is followed by people in the community, especially in more rural areas? I imagine that takes the form of the youth teams of various soccer clubs.
I wouldn’t say that’s the case, no. People outside of private clubs don’t take interest in those clubs. People’s sports focus tends to be on the professional game - supporting your local town football club, sure, but not the youth teams, unless it’s the parents.
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