# Should Vargas (self confessed illegal alien reporter) be deported or charged **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491 "2011-06-22T21:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/61 "2011-06-24T14:54:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, if I embezzle $10,000,000, give the money to my kid and then die. My son gets to keep the money even after my crime is found out? And the kid isn’t really being “punished”, though it may feel that way, they’re just removing him from where he has no right to be. If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago; yeah, [he’d probably](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations) [keep the money](http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45754&page=1). ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/62 "2011-06-24T15:00:48Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago; yeah, [he’d probably](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations) [keep the money](http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45754&page=1). No if the embezzlement was DISCOVERED x years earlier. If you wait x years after you knew you had been ripped off, then you are SOL because of the SOL. Because it is hard to assemble a claim or a defence fairly after a certain period of time. But if your crime is concealed for 18 years, the SOL does not begin to run. ETA: Just realized that this is actually bolded in the second link you provided. Way to read for comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/63 "2011-06-24T15:01:17Z")
Morally? No. Legally, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/64 "2011-06-24T15:28:30Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago; yeah, [he’d probably](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations) [keep the money](http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45754&page=1). No, your own link shows that this is untrue. The time begins to run when the embezzlement is discovered, not from when it occurred. Did you read your links? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/65 "2011-06-24T15:36:23Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > No if the embezzlement was DISCOVERED x years earlier. If you wait x years after you knew you had been ripped off, then you are SOL because of the SOL. Because it is hard to assemble a claim or a defence fairly after a certain period of time. But if your crime is concealed for 18 years, the SOL does not begin to run. > > ETA: Just realized that this is actually bolded in the second link you provided. Way to read for comprehension. In **magellan01** ’s scenario…yes. If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago; yeah, he’d probably keep the money. In Vargas’s scenario (theoretically not factually) he could make the claim that the government discovered he was illegal at the age of 16 or even sooner. The US government merely didn’t look for him and forgot. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/66 "2011-06-24T15:37:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, your own link shows that this is untrue. > > The time begins to run when the embezzlement is discovered, not from when it occurred. > > Did you read your links? No. My link still supports what I said. Perhaps you need to reread my post? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/67 "2011-06-24T16:06:25Z")
> [@](#): > > So, if I embezzle $10,000,000, give the money to my kid and then die. My son gets to keep the money even after my crime is found out? And the kid isn’t really being “punished”, though it may feel that way, they’re just removing him from where he has no right to be. > [@orcenio](#): > > If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago; yeah, [he’d probably](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations) [keep the money](http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45754&page=1). OK, where in your scenario (or the original) is it discussed when the embezzlement is discovered? You said, “If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago…” he’d probably get to keep the money. But in fact the key question, which you don’t address, is when the embezzlement is discovered. In this analogy, the “embezzlement” – the immigration violation – has only been discovered now. So those people saying he should be deported are acting consistently with the rule in the embezzlement case. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/68 "2011-06-24T17:15:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This law is neither. If this kid was a gang banger type, all would be fine, right? I agree that this particular enforcement of the law is unfortunate for him, but good people get caught up in the law all the time. Good people? Sure. Innocent people? I sure as shit hope not. And that is the point. These kids are 100% innocent of any crime, and should not face any consequences for actions they had no control over. > [@magellan01](#): > > So, if I embezzle $10,000,000, give the money to my kid and then die. My son gets to keep the money even after my crime is found out? And the kid isn’t really being “punished”, though it may feel that way, they’re just removing him from where he has no right to be. Of course he is being punished. He is being taken away from his home. > [@magellan01](#): > > And if we make an allowance here we just increase the incidence of parents doing anything they can to bring kids into the country illegally. Sorry, that’s not helpful. And there are more important things than this one kid having to be deported. The actions you suggest would increase this kind of thing in the future. Again, sorry. You keep saying this, but it remains irrelevant. All you are saying is “I am willing to do wrong, because I find doing what is right to be too difficult”. It’s a lame attitude, and one I am disappointed to see so often. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/69 "2011-06-24T17:18:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, where in your scenario (or the original) is it discussed when the embezzlement is discovered? > > You said, “If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago…” he’d probably get to keep the money. But in fact the key question, which you don’t address, is when the embezzlement is discovered. > > In this analogy, the “embezzlement” – the immigration violation – has only been discovered now. So those people saying he should be deported are acting consistently with the rule in the embezzlement case. These situations aren’t the same. If the money was stolen, it was never legitimately the child’s. If a child spends his childhood growing up in the USA, that is legitimately his home, no matter what the law says. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/70 "2011-06-24T17:22:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > It’s unclear if you mean that the deportattion is punishment, or if the punishment you refer to is some sort of fine or sanction on top of the deportation. > > Either way, you’re wrong. > > No one is saying that a child should face punishment for a crime his parents forced him to commit. But once he turned 18 and continued to commit the crime, he became independently liable. > > And deportation is not a punishment. He has no legal right to be in this country. His parents caused him to come here at age 12 (not at age 2, by the way). It’s their fault that this became “the only country he knew.” > > The US government is not a substitute parent. Their “punishments” are penal in nature. Deportation is not punishment. You can’t simply blame the parents and have your responsibility magically absolved. We are still the ones sending men with guns to take a kid from his home country. We may not have caused the situation, but we are actors in it, and we have a responsibility to act morally and justly. Neither of those is consistent with booting a kid out of his home country. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/71 "2011-06-24T17:31:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, where in your scenario (or the original) is it discussed when the embezzlement is discovered? > > You said, “If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago…” he’d probably get to keep the money. But in fact the key question, which you don’t address, is when the embezzlement is discovered. Frankly **magellan01** ’s scenario never outlined the discovery date. Which is why I clearly stated “Exact deadline varies per case/state…” in addition to “If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago; yeah, he’d probably keep the money.” Which you seemed to have glossed over. > [@](#): > > In this analogy, the “embezzlement” – the immigration violation – has only been discovered now. So those people saying he should be deported are acting consistently with the rule in the embezzlement case. I already made a statement on “discovery” in post 65 for Vargas’s scenario. Suffice to say, Vargas coming clean now is quite different than a victim discovering that they’ve been embezzled. If the cases were at all identical then Vargas could make the case that government discovered the crime at 16, but failed to catch him. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/72 "2011-06-24T17:33:57Z")
Still running, but some food for thought: Immigration and Customs Enforcement has acknowledged for ages that they simply do not have the resources to remove everyone who is removable, and so they concentrate their efforts on convicted criminals, particularly violent criminals, which is frankly a policy that I would find hard to argue with. In fact, one week ago they released a [new memo](http://www.iceunion.org/download/283-284-mortons-prosecutorial-discretion-memo.pdf) outlining the circumstances under which prosecutorial discretion should be excercised, several of which apply to Mr. Vargas. Meanwhile, the ICE union is [pretty pissed off about it,](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ice-agents-union-speaks-out-on-directors-discretionary-memo-124441368.html) though most in my office agree that it simply builds on longstanding policy. How will it all shake out? Anyone’s guess. Meanwhile, the masses are huddling all over my desk, so back I go to work. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/73 "2011-06-24T17:39:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This law is neither. If this kid was a gang banger type, all would be fine, right? I agree that this particular enforcement of the law is unfortunate for him, but good people get caught up in the law all the time. Well, if “good people” get caught up in the law without doing anything themselves to deserve it, then that means, almost by definition, that this is an unjust and unfair law. In my opinion. This is clearly a major disagreement in philosophy between us. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/74 "2011-06-24T17:41:28Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Frankly **magellan01** ’s scenario never outlined the discovery date. Which is why I clearly stated “Exact deadline varies per case/state…” in addition to “If this embezzlement happened 18 years ago; yeah, he’d probably keep the money.” Which you seemed to have glossed over. OK, let’s ungloss it. How, precisely, does he “probably keep the money?” > [@](#): > > I already made a statement on “discovery” in post 65 for Vargas’s scenario. Suffice to say, Vargas coming clean now is quite different than a victim discovering that they’ve been embezzled. > > If the cases were at all identical then Vargas could make the case that government discovered the crime at 16, but failed to catch him. How so? A state DMV employee has no immigration enforcement responsibility, even if we credit Vargas’ story completely. “The government” involved in immigration is the federal government, not some separately sovereign state government. So in what way is Vargas’ coming clean now not precisely the same as a victim now discovering they’ve been embezzled? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/75 "2011-06-24T17:41:43Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Still running, but some food for thought: Immigration and Customs Enforcement has acknowledged for ages that they simply do not have the resources to remove everyone who is removable, and so they concentrate their efforts on convicted criminals, particularly violent criminals, which is frankly a policy that I would find hard to argue with. In fact, one week ago they released a [new memo](http://www.iceunion.org/download/283-284-mortons-prosecutorial-discretion-memo.pdf) outlining the circumstances under which prosecutorial discretion should be excercised, several of which apply to Mr. Vargas. > > Meanwhile, the ICE union is [pretty pissed off about it,](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ice-agents-union-speaks-out-on-directors-discretionary-memo-124441368.html) though most in my office agree that it simply builds on longstanding policy. > > How will it all shake out? Anyone’s guess. Meanwhile, the masses are huddling all over my desk, so back I go to work. That’s exactly what I said upthread. They should concentrate on people who are actually a threat, not on a productive member of society. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/76 "2011-06-24T17:43:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > These situations aren’t the same. If the money was stolen, it was never legitimately the child’s. If a child spends his childhood growing up in the USA, that is legitimately his home, no matter what the law says. > [@treis](#): > > You can’t simply blame the parents and have your responsibility magically absolved. We are still the ones sending men with guns to take a kid from his home country. We may not have caused the situation, but we are actors in it, and we have a responsibility to act morally and justly. Neither of those is consistent with booting a kid out of his home country. Says you. But this is an unsupported assertion. Why don’t you just announce that we can’t deport him because The Book of Treis, chapter 7, forbids it? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/77 "2011-06-24T17:44:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But this is an unsupported assertion. Why don’t you just announce that we can’t deport him because The Book of Treis, chapter 7, forbids it? Not exactly, but read the memo I linked above re: policy on prosecutorial discretion. It’s ICE’s own policy not to expend resources on people like Vargas. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/78 "2011-06-24T18:35:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Good people? Sure. Innocent people? I sure as shit hope not. And that is the point. These kids are 100% innocent of any crime, and should not face any consequences for actions they had no control over. Ah, now your moving the goalpost, moving from “punishment” to “consequences”. So you seem to accept that he is not being “punished”, but the consequences are troubling you. Well, we all have to live through the consequences that our parents made concerning our upbringing. Some of those consequences are positive, some are negative. Welcome to the world of reality. > [@treis](#): > > Of course he is being punished. He is being taken away from his home. Oops. Now we’re back to him being punished. He is not. He is being removed from a place that he has no right to be. I suppose you think that someone who unknowingly buys stolen goods should be able to keep them when it is discovered that those goods are stolen. Is that about right? > [@treis](#): > > You keep saying this, but it remains irrelevant. All you are saying is “I am willing to do wrong, because I find doing what is right to be too difficult”. It’s a lame attitude, and one I am disappointed to see so often. You keep saying this—that it is “wrong”—as if it is a fact of the universe. It’s not. It’s just you’re opinion. It is not “wrong”. I’d say it is unfortunate. Again, welcome to the world. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/79 "2011-06-24T18:35:46Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Not exactly, but read the memo I linked above re: policy on prosecutorial discretion. It’s ICE’s own policy not to expend resources on people like Vargas. Sure. But this is a matter of wise use of limited resources. He could not, for example, defend himself against deportation by referring to ICE’s memo. Nor does ICE’s memo say that their decision is an effort to stop the immoral deportation of people. A fair inference to draw is that, if ICE had the necessary resources, they would happily deport Vargas. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/80 "2011-06-24T18:37:58Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Well, if “good people” get caught up in the law without doing anything themselves to deserve it, then that means, almost by definition, that this is an unjust and unfair law. In my opinion. This is clearly a major disagreement in philosophy between us. See my example of stolen goods above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491.md?page=5)