# Should Vargas (self confessed illegal alien reporter) be deported or charged **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491 "2011-06-22T21:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/81 "2011-06-24T18:48:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Says you. What exactly is your problem with my statement? That we have a responsibility to act justly? That it is wrong to punish children for what their parents did. > [@Bricker](#): > > But this is an unsupported assertion. Why don’t you just announce that we can’t deport him because The Book of Treis, chapter 7, forbids it? I never said we can’t, I said we shouldn’t. Instead of brilliant arguments such as “Says you” and lame jokes, maybe you can address the actual content of my argument. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/82 "2011-06-24T18:54:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What exactly is your problem with my statement? That we have a responsibility to act justly? That it is wrong to punish children for what their parents did. I _think_ the point is that “booting the kid out of” THE “country” is not objectively “wrong”, or “unjust” or “immoral”. Those are your _opinions_. In other words, “Says you”. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/83 "2011-06-24T18:54:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ah, now your moving the goalpost, moving from “punishment” to “consequences”. So you seem to accept that he is not being “punished”, but the consequences are troubling you. Well, we all have to live through the consequences that our parents made concerning our upbringing. Some of those consequences are positive, some are negative. Welcome to the world of reality. I don’t see a real difference between punishment and consequences in this case. And, as I said before, you can’t simply blame the parents to absolve you of responsibility. We are still the ones sending men with guns to take an innocent person away from their home. I surmise from your ignoring of my “innocent” comment and dropping your oft repeated “good people get caught up in the justice system” line, that you aren’t for punishing innocent people. Baby steps I suppose. > [@magellan01](#): > > Oops. Now we’re back to him being punished. He is not. He is being removed from a place that he has no right to be. I suppose you think that someone who unknowingly buys stolen goods should be able to keep them when it is discovered that those goods are stolen. Is that about right? Gee, let’s see what I’d have to say about that: > [@treis](#): > > These situations aren’t the same. If the money was stolen, it was never legitimately the child’s. If a child spends his childhood growing up in the USA, that is legitimately his home, no matter what the law says. > [@magellan01](#): > > You keep saying this—that it is “wrong”—as if it is a fact of the universe. It’s not. It’s just you’re opinion. It is not “wrong”. I’d say it is unfortunate. Again, welcome to the world. Unfortunate is tripping and breaking your arm. Being taken from your home when you have done nothing wrong is wrong. It’s not random chance that is taking these people from their home. It is preconceived and planned action by the government. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/84 "2011-06-24T18:56:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I _think_ the point is that “booting the kid out of” THE “country” is not objectively “wrong”, or “unjust” or “immoral”. Those are your _opinions_. In other words, “Says you”. _shrug_ I don’t see anyone trying to defend it as a right, moral, or just action. But by all means, if you feel that it is, go ahead and provide your argument. After all, right/wrong, just/unjust, and moral/immoral are all opinions in the end. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/85 "2011-06-24T19:09:51Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t see a real difference between punishment and consequences in this case. Ha! I call bullshit. That’s why you’ve been using “punishment” as much as you have. And _that_ is a different argument, your fallacious appeal to emotion aside. Now you seek to have it both ways: “well, okay, it’s not really _punishment_, but the _consequences_ are negative so it’s kinda like punishment. So let’s just call it that. Because that sounds so much harsher.” > [@treis](#): > > And, as I said before, you can’t simply blame the parents to absolve you of responsibility. We are still the ones sending men with guns to take an innocent person away from their home. May I suggest, MEN WITH GUNS I mean, if you want to use inflammatory language to beef up an appeal to emotion, I mean, go for it. > [@treis](#): > > Unfortunate is tripping and breaking your arm. Being taken from your home when you have done nothing wrong is wrong. Not if you’re in a place you have no right to be in. > [@treis](#): > > It’s not random chance that is taking these people from their home. It is preconceived and planned action by the government. “These people”? I thought we were talking about Vargas. And what in the world do you mean by your last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/86 "2011-06-24T19:10:51Z")
> [@treis](#): > > _shrug_ I don’t see anyone trying to defend it as a right, moral, or just action. But by all means, if you feel that it is, go ahead and provide your argument. After all, right/wrong, just/unjust, and moral/immoral are all opinions in the end. I’ve already done so. Try rereading. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/87 "2011-06-24T19:12:11Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Not exactly, but read the memo I linked above re: policy on prosecutorial discretion. It’s ICE’s own policy not to expend resources on people like Vargas. And that makes sense. But if a person like Vargas falls into their hands, it seems wrong to let him go. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/88 "2011-06-24T19:12:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What exactly is your problem with my statement? That we have a responsibility to act justly? That it is wrong to punish children for what their parents did. Neither. My problem with your statement is the claim that this is a punishment. > [@](#): > > I never said we can’t, I said we shouldn’t. > > Instead of brilliant arguments such as “Says you” and lame jokes, maybe you can address the actual content of my argument. Right. Your claim that we shouldn’t is simply your opinion. There is no argument supporting it. There’s nothing for me to address. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/89 "2011-06-24T19:16:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And that makes sense. But if a person like Vargas falls into their hands, it seems wrong to let him go. He hasn’t fallen into their hands. As far as I know, he has not, to date, been arrested for anything, nor has he been placed in deportation proceedings. Both of those things take resources. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/90 "2011-06-24T19:22:41Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > He hasn’t fallen into their hands. As far as I know, he has not, to date, been arrested for anything, nor has he been placed in deportation proceedings. Both of those things take resources. I didn’t mean it quite so literally. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/91 "2011-06-24T19:33:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ha! I call bullshit. That’s why you’ve been using “punishment” as much as you have. And _that_ is a different argument, your fallacious appeal to emotion aside. Now you seek to have it both ways: “well, okay, it’s not really _punishment_, but the _consequences_ are negative so it’s kinda like punishment. So let’s just call it that. Because that sounds so much harsher.” Oh noes you’ve got me! You aren’t going to repeat the “good people get caught up in the law all the time” argument? > [@magellan01](#): > > Not if you’re in a place you have no right to be in. Says you. > [@magellan01](#): > > “These people”? I thought we were talking about Vargas. And what in the world do you mean by your last sentence. These people, as in immigrants who came here as children. What do you think I mean by the last sentence? You can’t blame something on fortune when you are taking deliberate actions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/92 "2011-06-24T19:43:07Z")
> [@treis](#): > > > [@magellen01](#): > > > > Says you. Also, the law. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/93 "2011-06-24T19:52:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I didn’t mean it quite so literally. ICE means it quite literally - there are probably millions of people who are supposed to take priority over him for deportation. Or even if we’re just counting people with criminal convictions, hundreds of thousands. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/94 "2011-06-24T19:57:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Neither. > > My problem with your statement is the claim that this is a punishment. > Right. Your claim that we shouldn’t is simply your opinion. There is no argument supporting it. There’s nothing for me to address. Unbeknownst to Steve Smith, his parents illegally immigrated with him from Turkmenistan when he was 2. John Smith, Steve’s father, worked as a humble gardener for a private family who did not adequately check his social security number. John Smith was in contact with the local branch of the Turkmenistanian mafia, and with his meager savings bought a legitimate copy of a birth certificate and SSN for a deceased new born baby who was born at the same time. With these fraudulent documents, Steve was enrolled in school. In school Steve Smith was of above average, but not exceptional intelligence. With hard work, and diligence he was able to graduate near the top of his class and earn a scholarship to a local University. At the University, he studied engineering, and managed to graduate with a decent GPA. He managed to land a job with a respected design firm, although as a ill paid entry level employee. Steve was satisfied, as he was able to live on his own, was getting serious with his girlfriend. After several years of gaining experience, he applied for his dream job with a big defense firm, and managed to land the position. During his background check for his security clearance, investigators discovered the fraud. When they confronted Steve’s parents, they admitted that Steve was born in Turkmenistan and confessed to the fraud. The next day, ICE agents came, arrested Steve, and deported him to Turkmenistan. This is wrong because: (1) Removing him from his job, friends, girlfriend, and everyone he knows causes him a great deal of pain. (2) Having to live in Turkmenistan will cause him a great deal of distress as he does not know the language, has no contacts, and likely will unable to have a good life. (3) He bears no culpability for the situation he finds himself in. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/95 "2011-06-27T14:32:03Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Unbeknownst to Steve Smith, his parents illegally immigrated with him from Turkmenistan when he was 2. John Smith, Steve’s father, worked as a humble gardener for a private family who did not adequately check his social security number. John Smith was in contact with the local branch of the Turkmenistanian mafia, and with his meager savings bought a legitimate copy of a birth certificate and SSN for a deceased new born baby who was born at the same time. With these fraudulent documents, Steve was enrolled in school. > > In school Steve Smith was of above average, but not exceptional intelligence. With hard work, and diligence he was able to graduate near the top of his class and earn a scholarship to a local University. At the University, he studied engineering, and managed to graduate with a decent GPA. He managed to land a job with a respected design firm, although as a ill paid entry level employee. Steve was satisfied, as he was able to live on his own, was getting serious with his girlfriend. After several years of gaining experience, he applied for his dream job with a big defense firm, and managed to land the position. During his background check for his security clearance, investigators discovered the fraud. When they confronted Steve’s parents, they admitted that Steve was born in Turkmenistan and confessed to the fraud. The next day, ICE agents came, arrested Steve, and deported him to Turkmenistan. > > This is wrong because: > > (1) Removing him from his job, friends, girlfriend, and everyone he knows causes him a great deal of pain. > > (2) Having to live in Turkmenistan will cause him a great deal of distress as he does not know the language, has no contacts, and likely will unable to have a good life. > > (3) He bears no culpability for the situation he finds himself in. Even if I grant that this is wrong – which I do not – this hypothetical differs materially from Vargas’, where he learned of the decpetion at 16 and continued to perpetuate it on his own for ten more years. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/96 "2011-06-27T14:40:31Z")
What would you have had him do? Turn himself in? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/97 "2011-06-27T19:12:49Z")
Quoth **magellan01** : > [@](#): > > This law is neither. If this kid was a gang banger type, all would be fine, right? If this kid were a gang-banger type, then there would be a problem by virtue of the fact that he was a gang-banger. This would be true regardless of his citizenship status. Gang membership is a completely independent issue from immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/98 "2011-06-27T19:27:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What would you have had him do? Turn himself in? Yes. Or leave, without turning himself in. Why shouldn’t he? Your question seems to suggest that it’s absurd to turn himself in, but he’s committed felonies. Isn’t it the right thing to do if you’re guilty of a crime – turn yourself in? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/99 "2011-06-27T19:53:05Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Good people? These kids are 100% innocent of any crime, and should not face any consequences for actions they had no control over. > [@treis](#): > > If a child spends his childhood growing up in the USA, that is legitimately his home, no matter what the law says. Well,if you break a law, you are not 100% innocent of any crime, no matter what you say. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491/100 "2011-06-27T21:44:19Z")
Even if, the moment he turned 16, he bought himself an airline ticket to leave the country, he’d still be staying here for a few days while he was waiting for his flight. Wouldn’t he be committing a crime just by virtue of being here for those few days? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-vargas-self-confessed-illegal-alien-reporter-be-deported-or-charged/586491.md?page=6)