# Should viciously mocking the boss's wife be a firing offense? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 12, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295 "2014-05-12T19:07:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/41 "2014-05-13T00:56:51Z")
There was no accuser: the General Manager heard them talking about his own wife. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/42 "2014-05-13T00:59:22Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > There was no accuser: the General Manager heard them talking about his own wife. Damn, I somehow misread the OP thinking the guy wanted permission to fire them. If I heard them and I had the unquestioned power to fire them, I would. ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/43 "2014-05-13T01:01:51Z")
**Should viciously mocking the boss’s wife be a firing offense?** > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > In Stephen’s place, would you try to talk Geoff out of firing LeMoyne and Patrice? No, and I would be happy to fire them myself. On this message board, the prime directive is, “Don’t be a jerk.” I’ve never owned a business, but if I did I would tell every new hire that not being a jerk was a condition of their employment. I’d fire them whether they were saying that crap about the boss’s wife or the girlfriend of the high school summer hire working in the mailroom. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Winters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Michael\_Winters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Winters)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/44 "2014-05-13T06:28:29Z")
I think in some places it’s illegal to fire people over non-work-related stuff. Firing someone because their opinion of your wife makes you mad might come user this. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/45 "2014-05-13T10:23:32Z")
Can we clarify if Patrice is a male-type salesperson or a female-type salesperson? (For purposes of this thread, does it matter?) [Patrice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba) is a male-type name, isn’t it? Two posters in this thread have referred to Patrice as “she” or “her”, and the OP hasn’t corrected them. According to the OP, Patrice said: > [@Patrice](#): > > The first person laughs. “You are so bad, LeMoyne. Anyway, she must be great in bed. Bet she swallows–” Would a female-type person likely have said such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/46 "2014-05-13T11:04:25Z")
Does the company always just go from “still at work” to “fired?” Is there no warning procedure? I’d got a first warning, maybe, based on something like undermining team morale. Firing would be a bit much, especially since you say Geoff doesn’t have to work with this people on a daily basis. Firing them would be pure revenge, nothing to do with the business. Have it written down as a reference for if they’re ever accused of similar behaviour to clients or colleagues, however. > [@Senegoid](#): > > Can we clarify if Patrice is a male-type salesperson or a female-type salesperson? (For purposes of this thread, does it matter?) [Patrice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba) is a male-type name, isn’t it? > > Two posters in this thread have referred to Patrice as “she” or “her”, and the OP hasn’t corrected them. > > According to the OP, Patrice said: > Would a female-type person likely have said such a thing? Yes, some women would say such a thing. Skald always makes the name in his hypotheticals gender-neutral and tries to avoid pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/47 "2014-05-13T11:37:10Z")
I think there is a big difference between this incident happening at work and it happening outside work, whatever local employment law says on the matter. Given it happened outside work, I’d be in favour of giving L & P an opportunity to apologise, explain to them this sort of behaviour/attitude is unacceptable, and then leave it at that. If it had happened at work, there would be more grounds for further disciplinary action (up to and including firing). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/48 "2014-05-13T12:29:50Z")
I think…fire one of them, and hold a razor-wire-ring, glass-encrusted-glove cage match to decide who stays. Failing that, if I were Stephen in Tennessee, I’d fire both their asses - well, I’d first ask them to confirm it, so it’s not just Geoff’s say-so - _then_ I’d fire their asses. And I’d tell everyone else _why_ I was firing their asses. Probably via the company Facebook page. If this was in a different setting (Say, here, which is not a fire-at-will country. Although car salespeople are usually short-term contract employees and _can_ be not renewed at will, even here; but let’s pretend they’re salaried) they’d get a written warning, for contributing to a poisonous work environment. Personally, I wouldn’t be passing any tips their way, either, wouldn’t be looking at them for promotion, nor any company trips or the like. Basically, not only did they insult my friend’s wife, they showed themselves to be misogynistic trash and not very smart drunks, either. Not the kind _I’d_ want to work with, never mind Geoff’s issues. If I were Stephen and I was told they said this about someone _completely unrelated_ to the business, I’d _still_ want to get rid of them, because I don’t want woman-hating scum working for me. It obviously wasn’t a private, privileged convo, IMO, as Geoff didn’t go out of his way to hear what they were saying. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/49 "2014-05-13T12:35:29Z")
ETA: **Skald** , were you trying in the OP to draw a distinction between the two guys’ behaviour, implying one was much more passive in the exchange than the other? Because I just want you to know I think they’re both equally liable for all that, and it was the passive one who was the instigator by my reading. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/50 "2014-05-13T13:25:43Z")
Make them have sex with Donna. That’ll teach em. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/51 "2014-05-13T14:26:38Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > If I’m the guy making the decision, it would go like this. “Look you two, as you know, Geoff overheard you talking trash about Donna. You will write Geoff a note of apology, I will approve the note before you give it to him, and then if he still wants your sorry asses fired, you will be fired. So make the note persuasive. I will give a small effort into asking him to forgive you, but’ I’m not going to work up a big sweat about it. You guys screwed up big-time and we all know it. Whether you are fired or not or forgiven or not, we are done with this kind of behavior. If that is agreeable to you, then we will proceed. If not, you are fired right now. Is that understood? I’d also offer words of wisdom about ever trashing talking anyone in any circumstances, but if you imbeciles didn’t already learn that lesson from this incident, I would be wasting my time, wouldn’t I?” > > Always assume someone is listening around the corner, or you have butt dialed them on your cell phone or didn’t hang up the phone correctly. This is the best action I’ve heard. The only thing I might add is to let L and P know that they’ve burned every bridge, shredded every bit of good will, and obliterated every benefit of the doubt that they had at that company. They had better PERFORM if they ever want to stay employed. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/52 "2014-05-13T15:15:19Z")
Think what you would do if you were the boss and some of your employees were disrespecting you (and FYI disrespecting the boss’s wife publicly is an extension of disrespecting the boss)? You going to keep giving them money to call your wife an ugly pig? I mean seriously. What do you think is going to happen if you opening insult the bosses’ wife? You think he’s going to continue to take an active interest in the success of your career while you’re snickering and insulting him behind his back? Sure, every business has rules and procedures. But ultimately every business is built on relationships and trust. If you disrespect your boss (or his wife), expect there to be consequences, regardless of what the employee handbook or local labor laws say. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/53 "2014-05-13T15:48:11Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That said, I’d fire both employees involved in the mocking. Don’t care what their excuses may be. Don’t care how sorry they are. Get them out of my sight. Now. However, unlike Geoff, I would not pass the buck to their manager. I’m old school like Ned Stark, and I’ll swing the sword myself. Agreed. Though I might make them sweat first. I’d bring them into my office (bonus points if they have to travel to the GM’s office), sit them down and make them wait for about 10-15 minutes, then walk in and be completely silent. Either they are going to willing throw themselves on my sword (singularly or together), or _small_ chance that they might give me reason to withhold the swing. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/54 "2014-05-13T16:02:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > “Oh my god, did you see Geoff’s wife?” the first person says. “Does that man not realize how good-looking he is? He could do so, so much better–” > > “Maybe it’s charity work,” the second person replies. “Cause I wouldn’t let my _dog_ fuck her. Unless I was about to put him down anyway.” > > The first person laughs. “You are so _bad_, LeMoyne. Anyway, she must be great in bed. Bet she swallows–” > > “I couldn’t get drunk enough to let that fugly face near my junk, Patrice. But they can’t be fucking anyway. Not unless he blindfolds himself–” I think Geoff might be afoul of labor laws for hiring 14 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/55 "2014-05-13T16:45:16Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Fire Patrice. He isn’t great at his job and he just fucked up royally violating the number one rule of don’t piss off your boss. > > LeMoyne on the other hand is a valuable asset to the company, I could certainly justify firing him but since he’s been doing so well otherwise I’d want to keep him on. That. Remember that, in this situation, your first loyalty is to the business and its performance. Top performers like Lemoyne are not easily replaced, and getting rid of his production will hurt the business. While he’s a proven asswipe, that has not affected his job performance. But mediocrities with bad attitudes like Patrice are contagious and the business is better off without him. Fire him while blaming performance (which had better be documented), even if you and he both know it’s really for the comments. Besides, they obviously play off each other. Separate them, by firing one, and the comments will cease. Lemoyne will get the message, he’ll be on his best behavior since it will be clear to him why his buddy got fired and he’s on his last chance, and he might even be a better employee for it. A better person too, but that’s not your problem. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/56 "2014-05-13T17:33:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That. Remember that, in this situation, your first loyalty is to the business and its performance. Top performers like Lemoyne are not easily replaced, and getting rid of his production will hurt the business. While he’s a proven asswipe, that has not affected his job performance. But mediocrities with bad attitudes like Patrice are contagious and the business is better off without him. Fire him while blaming performance (which had better be documented), even if you and he both know it’s really for the comments. > > Besides, they obviously play off each other. Separate them, by firing one, and the comments will cease. Lemoyne will get the message, he’ll be on his best behavior since it will be clear to him why his buddy got fired and he’s on his last chance, and he might even be a better employee for it. A better person too, but that’s not your problem. What documented? In an at-will state, you can fire anyone for any reason. Unless you are a woman or minority or other protected class, most lawyers wouldn’t even bother to take your case. And “top performers” with attitude problems who act like jerks do harm the overall business. They foster resentment and undermine the boss’s authority. Other workers see that a couple guys can get away with crap and they think they can too. > [@Dead Cat](#): > > I think there is a big difference between this incident happening at work and it happening outside work, whatever local employment law says on the matter. Given it happened outside work, I’d be in favour of giving L & P an opportunity to apologise, explain to them this sort of behaviour/attitude is unacceptable, and then leave it at that. If it had happened at work, there would be more grounds for further disciplinary action (up to and including firing). Why? They only reason they would apologize is because you are threatening their livelihood. The only difference IMHO is that if the incident happened while at the office, you wouldn’t need to contrive some reason to fire them. As much as I like separating work and personal time, it’s not like things you do outside of work didn’t happen just because you were off the clock. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/57 "2014-05-13T17:36:41Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > I think there is a big difference between this incident happening at work and it happening outside work, whatever local employment law says on the matter. Given it happened outside work, I’d be in favour of giving L & P an opportunity to apologise, explain to them this sort of behaviour/attitude is unacceptable, and then leave it at that. If it had happened at work, there would be more grounds for further disciplinary action (up to and including firing). This. People who easedrop will (deservedly) hear unpleasant things said about them or someone they love. If they had said these things to Geoff’s face or infront of an audience of coworkers, it would be different, but an adult especially one in a management position is just being petty and childish if they are offended by what someone thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/58 "2014-05-13T17:38:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Can we clarify if Patrice is a male-type salesperson or a female-type salesperson? (For purposes of this thread, does it matter?) I’ve always encountered Patrice as a female name, and that’s what I intended when I wrote the OP. I had to edit out a couple of mistaken references to her as “Patricia.” > [@SciFiSam](#): > > Skald always makes the name in his hypotheticals gender-neutral and tries to avoid pronouns. SOMETIMES I do. Not this time. ETA: And the only LeMoyne I’ve ever known was male. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/59 "2014-05-13T17:41:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What documented? In an at-will state, you can fire anyone for any reason. Unless you are a woman or minority or other protected class, most lawyers wouldn’t even bother to take your case. > > And “top performers” with attitude problems who act like jerks do harm the overall business. They foster resentment and undermine the boss’s authority. Other workers see that a couple guys can get away with crap and they think they can too. > > Why? They only reason they would apologize is because you are threatening their livelihood. The only difference IMHO is that if the incident happened while at the office, you wouldn’t need to contrive some reason to fire them. > > As much as I like separating work and personal time, it’s not like things you do outside of work didn’t happen just because you were off the clock. The boss’s authority doesn’t extend employees’ every waking moment and thought. And nothing foster’s resentment in the workplace like a boss with a Nero complex. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/60 "2014-05-13T17:44:07Z")
Even at this late date, I thought this would be a thread about [Ginny Sack](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Show). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295.md?page=4)