# Should viciously mocking the boss's wife be a firing offense? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 12, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295 "2014-05-12T19:07:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/121 "2014-05-14T17:57:55Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > “Then, Geoff, you’re an idiot. Hopefully, my replacement will kiss your ass and steal everything he or she can get. It would serve you right.” Bosses that treat their employees like feudal serfs deserve employees that are con artists. “Hopefully he will have enough sense to not get drunk and insult the bosses wife in public. Now get the fuck out of my office and send that other idiot in here on your way out!” At this point any further argument is moot. In this scenario, Patrice and LeMoyne fucked up and now they have to go deal with the consequences. It’s largely irrelevant if they think Geoff is an arsehole or idiot or unprofessional. They aren’t the ones in charge. Also, this is not “treating your employee like a feudal serf”. In your mind, does “kissing the bosses ass” mean “refraining from holding court with a bunch of drunken jerkoffs cracking jokes about how you wouldn’t fuck the boss’ wife with a stolen dick”? > [@ZPG Zealot](#): > > And who among us has not commented negatively about our boss’s tastes, intelligence, class, etc.? As long as they aren’t doing it on company time, the boss is an arsehole for taking out his insecurities on the people who work for him. Let’s be clear. Patrice and LeMoyne are the assholes. What they were doing wouldn’t have been cool even if it wasn’t their bosses wife. The fact that they did it at an event where their boss could (and did) overhear them makes them stupid on top of it. What is it you think is “insecure” about not tolerating someone making crude remarks about your wife? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/122 "2014-05-14T18:09:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > “Hopefully he will have enough sense to not get drunk and insult the bosses wife in public. Now get the fuck out of my office and send that other idiot in here on your way out!” > > At this point any further argument is moot. In this scenario, Patrice and LeMoyne fucked up and now they have to go deal with the consequences. It’s largely irrelevant if they think Geoff is an arsehole or idiot or unprofessional. They aren’t the ones in charge. > > Also, this is not “treating your employee like a feudal serf”. In your mind, does “kissing the bosses ass” mean “refraining from holding court with a bunch of drunken jerkoffs cracking jokes about how you wouldn’t fuck the boss’ wife with a stolen dick”? > > Let’s be clear. Patrice and LeMoyne are the assholes. What they were doing wouldn’t have been cool even if it wasn’t their bosses wife. The fact that they did it at an event where their boss could (and did) overhear them makes them stupid on top of it. > > What is it you think is “insecure” about not tolerating someone making crude remarks about your wife? In a civilized society when those crude remarks are not slander and do not present a reasonable threat of violence, we expect adults to tolerate them. Free speech isn’t just about speech you like, it means you tolerate the speech you don’t. Patrice and LeMoyne were crude and I would have told them so, walked away from the conversation, and avoided hanging out with them socially in the future. However, that doesn’t mean I would try to get them fired from their jobs which is easily as much a violent act against them as Geoff trying to punch one of them. Geoff is acting insecure. He probably realizes deep down his wife is ugly, he loves her anyway, but he doesn’t like to be reminded of this fact. And if he hadn’t been listening in he wouldn’t have overheard anything. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/123 "2014-05-14T18:10:02Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If they were drunk and loud and discussing a sensitive topic in a boorish manner in a setting where they could be overheard, I have less sympathy. Err, that’s exactly what they were doing. “Just outside the door of the wedding venue” isn’t exactly a private room, a park bench or a cosy corner table… > [@](#): > > But in the OP, it sounded as if the boss was eavesdropping a conversation taking place between two private parties who thought they were only expressing opinions to each other. To my mind, eavesdropping requires some level of _mens rea_, but Geoff didn’t go outside with the intent to overhear them. They impinged on him. That’s not eavesdropping, that’s them being public. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/124 "2014-05-14T18:13:04Z")
It’s not “insecure” to be intolerant of bigots. And those two are misogynistic bigots. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/125 "2014-05-14T18:17:53Z")
Let me ask a question - if L&P had been making fun of G’s wife because she was, say, immigrant Asian, rather than ugly, would that still sit fine with those saying “Don’t fire them?” Say they said things like: “I bet she love him longtime! ‘Sucky-fucky, five Dollar!’” and “He must like sideways pussy!” Would it be “insecure” to fire them then? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/126 "2014-05-14T18:24:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s not “insecure” to be intolerant of bigots. And those two are misogynistic bigots. I’m not sure “misogynistic” is the right word for L & P. They’re clearly jackholes, but their hateful remarks don’t seem to be about Donna as a woman. They’re about her being UGLY. They might well have said similar things if Donna were a hot chick married to a troll. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/127 "2014-05-14T18:33:33Z")
I have fired people for gossiping before, and would again. Gossips have a hugely negative effect on morale and productivity. They also spend an enormous amount of time gossiping instead of working. Given the nature of the conversation, I’d say these are pretty nasty people, and their comments were viciously prejudiced. I have every reason to believe that this is their accustomed MO in conversation and that if they don’t think twice about insulting their employer’s spouse, there’s no reason to believe they have any scruples whatsoever about bad-mouthing anyone. Why would I continue to employ someone who I know is a risk to create a hostile workplace for anyone whose attractiveness is not up to their standards? And how would I ever expect to maintain authority in a workplace where people feel free to speak so rudely about my loved ones? I’m betting Stephen soon discovers that the other salespeople have been held back by LeMoyne’s negative presence, and that overall sales will remain steady in the near-term, and move up in future as repeat customers begin to build. People who need your goods may buy them in a pinch despite a negative encounter, but they won’t recommend you or come back themselves. Employing jerks will _always_ come back to bite you. Never hold on to an employee who you couldn’t trust to be a manager; and how could you possibly trust these two to manage anyone? Are you going to divide the staff by attractiveness and make sure they only manage good-looking people?!? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/128 "2014-05-14T18:34:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure “misogynistic” is the right word for L & P. They’re clearly jackholes, but their hateful remarks don’t seem to be about Donna as a woman. They’re about her being UGLY. They might well have said similar things if Donna were a hot chick married to a troll. There’s much more of an expectation that women be hot than the other way around, though. Just look at the fat guy/hot wife sitcom dynamic. \*But \*I was more referring to the crude sexual remarks. C’mon, even if it was a hot woman/troll situation, you’re not often going to get “I bet he goes down easy” remarks - much more likely to be about his bank account. That’s the misogyny I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/129 "2014-05-14T18:40:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s much more of an expectation that women be hot than the other way around, though. Just look at the fat guy/hot wife sitcom dynamic. > > \*But \*I was more referring to the crude sexual remarks. C’mon, even if it was a hot woman/troll situation, you’re not often going to get “I bet he goes down easy” remarks - much more likely to be about his bank account. That’s the misogyny I mean. Admittedly I wrote the remarks to be offensive and inviting a punch in the ball. But I don’t think “misogynistic” is the right word to describe them. But that really isn’t about the situation of the OP; more about the definition of “misogyny.” > [@TruCelt](#): > > I > I’m betting Stephen soon discovers that the other salespeople have been held back by LeMoyne’s negative presence, and that overall sales will remain steady in the near-term, and move up in future as repeat customers begin to build. People who need your goods may buy them in a pinch despite a negative encounter, but they won’t recommend you or come back themselves. I can’t agree with you there. Marginal closers often claim that they’d do better without competition from a particular good closer, but I’ve not seen that to be true. And LeMoyne may well be capable of compartmentalizing his behavior–behaving one way at the dealership, an entirely different way off the clock. Hell, I do that. Work!Skald is nothing like Board!Skald, except that both think Mrs. Rhymer is the most fetching woman on the planet and neither gets drunk. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/130 "2014-05-14T18:44:01Z")
Unless Geoff has superhuman powers of forgiveness and forgetting, the wife-insulting incident likely caused a near-permanent rift in the mutual respect between co-workers. Maybe they can apologize and fix that rift, but if they can’t, then either Geoff has to leave or they do. Otherwise, the business will suffer seriously. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/131 "2014-05-14T19:25:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure “misogynistic” is the right word for L & P. They’re clearly jackholes, but their hateful remarks don’t seem to be about Donna as a woman. They’re about her being UGLY. They might well have said similar things if Donna were a hot chick married to a troll. People, in general, are fairly sexist. Were the rolls reversed, the pair would likely be talking about how Geoff must be rich, have a 12" tongue, and/or have a 18" ding dong. While not flattering, the remarks would likely not be nearly as hateful as the hot guy/ugly wife remarks. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/132 "2014-05-14T19:54:35Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In a civilized society when those crude remarks are not slander and do not present a reasonable threat of violence, we expect adults to tolerate them. Free speech isn’t just about speech you like, it means you tolerate the speech you don’t. Patrice and LeMoyne were crude and I would have told them so, walked away from the conversation, and avoided hanging out with them socially in the future. However, that doesn’t mean I would try to get them fired from their jobs which is easily as much a violent act against them as Geoff trying to punch one of them. Geoff is acting insecure. He probably realizes deep down his wife is ugly, he loves her anyway, but he doesn’t like to be reminded of this fact. And if he hadn’t been listening in he wouldn’t have overheard anything. Here’s a test: If Patrice or Lemoyne said those things while interviewing for a position with Geoff, do you think Geoff should hire them even if they were the best candidate? It’s a difficult question to answer as calling a hiring manager’s wife fugly during your interview is generally shows such a high level of unprofessionalism and lack of judgment that it sort of renders the rest of the qualifications moot. You seem to misunderstand the nature of “free speech”. Slander and threats of violence are not the only forms of speech not protected by the First Amendment. Hate speech is also not protected. Neither is obscenity. And like it or not, the First Amendment does not protect against a private corporation restricting how an employee expresses themselves at work. But regardless of the laws, the concept of free speech certainly does not mean you have to sit there and take some drunken jerk making cracks about your wife. Geoff may not be allowed to physically assault the person, but that doesn’t mean he has to give them a paycheck either. In any event, I would be secure enough to fire their ass without giving a second thought as to what anyone thought about it. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/133 "2014-05-14T20:13:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > In any event, I would be secure enough to fire their ass without giving a second thought as to what anyone thought about it. In seething anger, I would do the same. Under the cold, harsh light of logic (let’s call him Stephen), I’d need to consider the effect of losing a top performer like LeMoyne. Wouldn’t be any good to let him go and lose my own job 6 months down the road because we’re losing numbers…to the guy we let go! Patrice stays or goes based on the LeMoyne decision. Don’t give her a chance to file a discrimination claim by sacking her and keeping LeMoyne. If they get to stay, there must be other repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/134 "2014-05-14T20:16:29Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Even in an at-will state, there are lawsuits companies don’t want to mess with (which is why out-of-court settlements with non-disclosure agreements exist). If the fired sales people are mad enough, clever enough, and bold enough (and it takes plenty of the last two to be sucessful at selling cars), I imagine they could cook up a scenario in which Geoff’s firing of them is related to something infinitely sueable and highly embarassing for the company. Heck, if they’ve got the guts to do it (and some people do if they feel they were wrongly fired), airing the actual reason with a detailed recreation of the conversation made available to the wider public would probably be more than the company would want to mess with. Not to mention it would be very nasty thing for Donna to have to go through. In fact, if I were Geoff’s fired employees a very generous out-of-court settlement with non-discolosure agreement would be the only way Donna (and most of Memphis) would not find out about what happened. And you base this on what? The lawsuits that companies don’t want to mess with typically involve sexual harassment, race, religion, sexual orientation or some other similarly protected class. Do Patrice and LeMoyne belong to one of those protected classes? Being a drunk asshole who got fired for making wildly inappropriate sexist comments about your bosses wife is not a protected class. And in fact, had they made those comments at work, there is a good chance the company could have been sued for NOT firing them. Do you think that story makes them appear sympathetic to a judge or jury? And by “cook up a scenario” do you imagine that Patrice and LeMoyne will risk charges for perjury, contempt, filing a frivolous lawsuit or other sanctions for making up a bullshit lawsuit? Do you think they could find a lawyer who would be willing to risk that? And putting that story out to the general public is a great idea. Here’s the headline. “Pair of Jackasses Fired for Being Dumbasses”. Can’t wait to see that news cycle on CNN. Could you imaging Geoff having to explain that to Donna? “I’m sorry honey. It’s true. I overheard those two idiots insulting you so I fired them the following Monday. Can you forgive me?” ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/135 "2014-05-14T20:22:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Unless Geoff has superhuman powers of forgiveness and forgetting, the wife-insulting incident likely caused a near-permanent rift in the mutual respect between co-workers. Maybe they can apologize and fix that rift, but if they can’t, then either Geoff has to leave or they do. Otherwise, the business will suffer seriously. I’ve been thinking the same thing. And how one earth would one apologize for such horrible behavior? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/136 "2014-05-14T20:22:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And you base this on what? \ > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m going to urge everybody to stop responding to\*\* ZPG Zealot\*\* as this point. Because I think the long-timers can see what she’s doing, and we’ve been down this road before. In case you missed the memo. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/137 "2014-05-14T20:24:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Let me ask a question - if L&P had been making fun of G’s wife because she was, say, immigrant Asian, rather than ugly, would that still sit fine with those saying “Don’t fire them?” Say they said things like: > “I bet she love him longtime! ‘Sucky-fucky, five Dollar!’” and “He must like sideways pussy!” Would it be “insecure” to fire them then? On their on-time and in a private conversation in fairly secluded location, it’s none of Geoff’s business what they do or say. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/138 "2014-05-14T20:32:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Here’s a test: If Patrice or Lemoyne said those things while interviewing for a position with Geoff, do you think Geoff should hire them even if they were the best candidate? It’s a difficult question to answer as calling a hiring manager’s wife fugly during your interview is generally shows such a high level of unprofessionalism and lack of judgment that it sort of renders the rest of the qualifications moot. > > You seem to misunderstand the nature of “free speech”. Slander and threats of violence are not the only forms of speech not protected by the First Amendment. Hate speech is also not protected. Neither is obscenity. And like it or not, the First Amendment does not protect against a private corporation restricting how an employee expresses themselves at work. > > But regardless of the laws, the concept of free speech certainly does not mean you have to sit there and take some drunken jerk making cracks about your wife. Geoff may not be allowed to physically assault the person, but that doesn’t mean he has to give them a paycheck either. > In any event, I would be secure enough to fire their ass without giving a second thought as to what anyone thought about it. During the job interview is not the same as having an off-work conversation. Notice that second to the last word OFF-WORK, it’s very important. Your boss does not have the right to dictate what you do once you are off the job. If they did people could be fired for being gay or not belonging to a certain religion, culture, social class, etc. Actually the concept of free speech does mean you have to tolerate someone making cracks about your wife if you choose to stand there listening to the conversation. If Geoff had walked away he would not have heard 90% of the conversation. Instead he choose to easedrop and discovered someone had a different opinion than him. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/139 "2014-05-14T20:35:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And by “cook up a scenario” do you imagine that Patrice and LeMoyne will risk charges for perjury, contempt, filing a frivolous lawsuit or other sanctions for making up a bullshit lawsuit? Do you think they could find a lawyer who would be willing to risk that? I know several lawyers that have million-dollar mansions because they have been willing to take risks like that. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-viciously-mocking-the-bosss-wife-be-a-firing-offense/688295/140 "2014-05-14T20:38:03Z")
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