# Should voting machine manufacturers have security clearances? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2005, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-voting-machine-manufacturers-have-security-clearances/333350 "2005-11-30T08:34:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-voting-machine-manufacturers-have-security-clearances/333350/1 "2005-11-30T08:34:38Z")
While perusing Slashdot about [Diebold’s threatened withdrawl from North Carolina](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10252248/from/RS.4/) (because they’d actually have to reveal the source code in their voting machines, the horror), I stumbled across [this message,](http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=169685&cid=14142022) which documents the backgrounds of the Diebold Election Systems division (formerly GEMS, Global Election Machine Systems) top dogs: [ul] [li]Norton Cooper (1988 founder, GEMS) – Convicted of political corruption in 1974. In jail for a year in the 1980s for fraud against the Canada government. Ordered out of stock pitch schemes and was part of the collapse of the Vancouver stock exchange.[/li][li]Charles Hong Lee (1988 founder, GEMS) – Real estate fraud; defrauding Chinese immigrants; aided Cooper in stock pitching schemes.[/li][li]Michael K. Graye (1988 founder, GEMS) – Stole $18 million from three companies in the '80s, jailed for stock fraud in the '90s. Arrested for tax evasion and money laundering in 1994. Currently in Canadian jail.[/li][li]John Elder – ran ballot printing plant for GEMS/Diebold. Convicted of cocaine trafficking in the '90s.[/li][li]Jeffrey Dean (computer consultant and programmer) – Convicted of 23 counts of computer-aided embezzlement, defrauded a law firm of $450,000. Full employee and lead programmer for the GEMS vote-tally product as of October 2000. Quit in 2002 and immediately re-hired, perhaps as an effort to hide his criminal past.[/li][/ul] A quick check with Google (and the resources at [Black Box Voting.org](http://blackboxvoting.org/)) confirms much of this information, so I’m assuming it’s not just random slander. Putting aside the question of whether or not you should trust a Diebold voting machine any further than you can throw a Hummer H2 (I sure wouldn’t), this begs the question of why people with such… colorful… backgrounds are allowed anywhere _near_ the development and/or operation of electronic voting machines. As someone who works on military computer systems and software, I feel safe to say that none of these guys would be allowed to do anything more sensitive than cleaning out the restrooms at my place-of-employment, since their backgrounds simply **scream** Unreliable Security Risk™ in seventeen different languages. Having these guys in positions of power is wrong on so many levels. Which begs the simple question: given that fair and proper elections are (well, _supposed to,_ anyway) arguably **the** most important thing in a democratic society, shouldn’t we – as in the voting populace – demand the same level of security clearances and vouchsafes that we give to our other sensitive computer software/hardware? Or is this all just an admission that our “open elections” are a sham, and that our election results are in the hands of [naked partisans?](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-voting-machine-manufacturers-have-security-clearances/333350/2 "2005-11-30T09:30:23Z")
I don’t know why we need to use voting machines at all. I can’t comment on the “naked partisan” article because I only saw 1-2 direct quotes and I’ve seen far too many quotes taken out of context such that their meaning changes fundamentally when you get the full picture. I make it a policy not to put any weight in quotes that have apparently been cherry picked or speech somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-voting-machine-manufacturers-have-security-clearances/333350/3 "2005-11-30T09:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > cherry picked or speech somewhere. should have been “cherry picked out of an interview or speech somewhere.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-voting-machine-manufacturers-have-security-clearances/333350/4 "2005-11-30T10:10:34Z")
…just picturing a slim woman wearing a beret and tight skirt, passing information to the Allies through her Resistance cell… …mmmmm… naked partisan… ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-voting-machine-manufacturers-have-security-clearances/333350/5 "2005-11-30T19:40:35Z")
Well, Diebold is the largest manufacturer of ATMs, and voting machines can superficially be considered to have similar security requirements. I can understand why they’d be the first company to be thought of. Ed ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-voting-machine-manufacturers-have-security-clearances/333350/6 "2005-11-30T20:08:50Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Well, Diebold is the largest manufacturer of ATMs . . . Considering that in light of the OP’s revelations about Diebold’s standards for hiring programmers . . . :eek: ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-voting-machine-manufacturers-have-security-clearances/333350/7 "2005-11-30T20:49:18Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I don’t know why we need to use voting machines at all. I don’t either, but given that they don’t seem to be going away any time soon (and that some folks are _really_ gung-ho about getting them in place ASAP), I think it’s reasonable to ask about the level of trustworthiness of the folks making them.