# Should we abolish the EPA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888 "2011-08-16T12:34:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/1 "2011-08-16T12:34:40Z")
[Michelle Bachmann](http://www.care2.com/causes/bachmann-wants-to-lock-up-the-epa-and-turn-out-the-lights.html) and other conservative candidates [like this one](http://thinkprogress.org/green/2011/07/27/280925/gop-2012-epa/) have been railing against the EPA for some time, proposing that it has outlived its usefulness (or is even wrecking the economy by excessive regulation that costs jobs) and that we should abolish it altogether. Their idea, I guess, is that future environmental regulations would be enacted by Congress (though in the absence of the EPA, it’s unclear where they would obtain the information necessary to make such decisions). What’s your take? Do we need the EPA anymore? Are jobs unnecessarily being crushed under the burden of excessive environmental regs? Could Congress be expected to make good decisions with regard to environmental stewardship? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/2 "2011-08-16T12:49:01Z")
No, we need the EPA and people like her want to get rid of it simply so corporations will have even more leeway to destroy the landscape and dump poison wherever they like than they do now. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/3 "2011-08-16T13:07:04Z")
[This poll](http://michiganmessenger.com/46203/poll-shows-little-support-for-abolishing-epa) was taken in February. The headline claims “little support” for curbing the EPA, but frankly I’m shocked there was as much support as there was. Close to 1/3 of those surveyed think the EPA overreaches. [In this poll,](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/environment_energy/25_favor_abolishing_epa_61_oppose) 25% of respondents favor abolishing the EPA. So it’s not just the candidates, there’s a surprisingly large (to me, at least) fraction of the public who are on board with the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/4 "2011-08-16T13:25:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, we need the EPA and people like her want to get rid of it simply so corporations will have even more leeway to destroy the landscape and dump poison wherever they like than they do now. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/5 "2011-08-16T13:30:55Z")
Those who don’t remember poisoned lakes and rivers or brown air would do well to consider what life was like before the EPA stepped in. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/6 "2011-08-16T14:08:41Z")
Michelle Bachmann thinks it’s a good idea, which tells you all you need to know. Whether the EPA overreaches and whether it needs to be abolished are totally unrelated questions. “How do you like your new history teacher, Jimmy?” “She’s nice, but she covered a few things that aren’t on the syllabus.” “Like what?” “Oh, like the effects of the Great Depression on child laborers and stuff.” “She did _what_? I’m going to call the school board and have her fired right now!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/7 "2011-08-16T14:25:39Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Cite? The past. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/8 "2011-08-16T14:26:59Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Cite? Here’s an example of what happens without an EPA: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > There have reportedly been at least thirteen fires on the Cuyahoga River, the first occurring in 1868.[12] The largest river fire in 1952 caused over $1 million in damage to boats and a riverfront office building.[13] Fires erupted on the river several more times before June 22, 1969, when a river fire captured the attention of Time magazine, which described the Cuyahoga as the river that “oozes rather than flows” and in which a person “does not drown but decays.”[14] > > The 1969 Cuyahoga River fire helped spur an avalanche of water pollution control activities resulting in the Clean Water Act, Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement, and the creation of the federal Environmental Protection Agency and the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency (OEPA). As a result, large point sources of pollution on the Cuyahoga have received significant attention from the OEPA in recent decades. These events are referred to in Randy Newman’s 1972 song “Burn On”, R.E.M.'s 1986 song “Cuyahoga”, and Adam Again’s 1992 song “River on Fire”. Great Lakes Brewing Company of Cleveland, Ohio have named their Burning River Pale Ale after the event. During the Gulf Oil Spill of May 2010, New York Times economist and Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman referred to the Cuyahoga fire as the start of “environmentalism”.[15] > > Water quality has improved and, partially in recognition of this improvement, the Cuyahoga River was designated as one of 14 American Heritage Rivers in 1998.[16] ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/9 "2011-08-16T14:39:43Z")
**Mr. Moto** is using an alternate definition of “cite” which reads “Bite my crank for a while providing evidence that everyone knows perfectly well but doesn’t suit my own raging ideological prejudices.” Maybe this all would have happened if there had never been an EPA, after all. Maybe the Cuyahoga was on the verge of becoming a paradise, and would have, quicker and cheaper, if not for that nasty EPA. Can you prove it wasn’t? Can you prove that while biting my crank? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/10 "2011-08-16T15:16:24Z")
I’m guessing that if in 2012 Bachmann gets elected _and_ every Tea-Party candidate does as well _and_ there’s an overall filibuster-proof Republican majority in both chambers of Congress… … well, the Americans are totally fucked and it will have been gleefully self-inflicted. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/11 "2011-08-16T15:18:26Z")
Don’t think you’re getting off scott-free, Canuck. Prevailing wind from our regulated-into-the-ground factory towns is northerly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/12 "2011-08-16T15:35:30Z")
Then this means WAR! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/13 "2011-08-16T15:52:25Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Cite? As noted above, history. Hell, not even history…happens today. Look at the pollution woes (with nothing like an EPA) is facing. Pollution is becoming a staggering problems for China. > [@](#): > > Since the US embassy in Beijing began tweeting hourly pollution reports last year, I – along with many other smog watchers – have been horrified at the frequency of “bad” and “hazardous” readings. > > But this week, the depth and murkiness of the haze was so appalling that the automated system briefly entered the realm of black comedy with a “crazy bad” analysis of our air. > > The outlandish description appeared on the @beijingair Twitter account late yesterday when levels of PM2.5 tiny particulate matter surged past 500, about 20 times higher than the guideline issued by the World Health Organisation. > > The “crazy bad” terminology – which was at odds with the normally sober and scientific language of the Twitter account – appeared to have been a joke embedded in the embassy’s monitoring program and triggered by a reading that was off the normal scale. > > SOURCE: [http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/nov/19/crazy-bad-beijing-air-pollution](http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/nov/19/crazy-bad-beijing-air-pollution) Google [pictures of China’s pollution](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cp=26&gs_id=22&xhr=t&q=pollution+us+embassy+china&qe=cG9sbHV0aW9uIHVzIGVtYmFzc3kgY2hpbmE&qesig=VgYLsu2_NDitLFX83UqzfA&pkc=AFgZ2tkgcFXTzvHj-s67cuX4_pS9gUjFFs37L0Y5qMGCMuujPSSzl8g1hqFIbhYBoJy93t-fT47bxzA1N5TskuvFIPAb91M_Jg&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.&biw=1680&bih=899&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi#um=1&hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pollution+china&pbx=1&oq=pollution+china&aq=f&aqi=g1g-m2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=9103l9645l0l10156l2l2l1l0l0l0l485l485l4-1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c37f4778f458e5b6&biw=1680&bih=899) problem. Companies are not seeking to be “good citizens” of their own accord. If they can save a buck by dumping toxic waste into the air or water they do it. But fine, forget China. We are the US! A country with about [1,280 Superfund sites](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites_in_the_United_States) (areas which are deemed toxic to humans). But hey, if you think the EPA is overreaching I invite you to move you and your family to one of those areas. I bet property is cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/14 "2011-08-16T16:00:00Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Do we need the EPA anymore? Are jobs unnecessarily being crushed under the burden of excessive environmental regs? Yes. I would be willing to abolish most other government agencies before the EPA. Clean water, clean air, and clean soil are necessities, not luxuries. No. Implementation could certainly be better in many cases, but regulations needn’t be net negatives for jobs. With proper direction of resources, we ought to be creating _more_ jobs finding ways to do the things we want to do without trashing our own backyard. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/15 "2011-08-16T16:01:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The “crazy bad” terminology – which was at odds with the normally sober and scientific language of the Twitter account – appeared to have been a joke embedded in the embassy’s monitoring program and triggered by a reading that was off the normal scale. Sounds like one of those times satire can’t keep up with reality. Kinda like Bachmann herself, truth be told. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/16 "2011-08-16T16:07:02Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Yes. I would be willing to abolish most other government agencies before the EPA. Clean water, clean air, and clean soil are necessities, not luxuries. > > No. Implementation could certainly be better in many cases, but regulations needn’t be net negatives for jobs. With proper direction of resources, we ought to be creating _more_ jobs finding ways to do the things we want to do without trashing our own backyard. Agreed. We need the EPA. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/17 "2011-08-16T16:15:58Z")
We could sell the power over water quality and air pollution to Exxon. Everybody knows that privatizing the government is so much better. I am sure we could sell Dow the rights to policing the Saginaw River and other Michigan rivers. The Detroit River would be much cleaner is we sold the rights to the steel companies. They turn parts of it into such a pretty reddish brown color. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/18 "2011-08-16T16:20:11Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Yes. I would be willing to abolish most other government agencies before the EPA. Clean water, clean air, and clean soil are necessities, not luxuries. “We’ve got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?” – Lee Iacocca ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/19 "2011-08-16T16:27:15Z")
No, history can’t be the cite. China can’t be the cite. **Der Trihs** said that people like her want corporations to have the freedom to destroy the environment. I’m one of the more conservative people on these boards, and I don’t support that. Furthermore, environmental protection isn’t merely handled by the EPA - it is a responsibility of many government agencies operating across many jurisdictions. I haven’t looked at the matter overly much, but my time in government service was enough to convince me that even without the EPA, the law would still have to be followed and enforcement mechanisms would still be in place. The Coast Guard, for example, would still have marine environmental protection responsibilities. The Forest Service would still implement environment policy on forest lands. I don’t personally think abolishing the EPA is a necessity or desirable, and I don’t think it is politically possible anyway - but politicians that make noises in this area aren’t automatically beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/20 "2011-08-16T16:28:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Then this means WAR! If you were worried about our F-22s, just wait til you see our acid rain. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888.md?page=2)