# Should we abolish the EPA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888 "2011-08-16T12:34:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/21 "2011-08-16T16:28:10Z")
The EPA, and about 3/4 of the other government agencies, should be abolished because there is no Constitutional basis for its existence. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/22 "2011-08-16T16:35:24Z")
There’s a rather large stretch between “abolish the EPA” and “abolish all regulation”. The two are most definitely not the same. My problem with the EPS is that it’s an incredibly blind, stupid bureaucracy, tends to overreach (and already its reach far exceeds its grasp). At this point, I think it may actually be doing more harm than good to the very environment it supposedly protects, simply because it tends to adopt really, really stupid top-down rules. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/23 "2011-08-16T16:35:25Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The EPA, and about 3/4 of the other government agencies, should be abolished because there is no Constitutional basis for its existence. Well, other than that pesky Commerce Clause, but hey, what’s a clause or two between friends? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/24 "2011-08-16T16:42:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Then this means WAR! I’d fight. No joke. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/25 "2011-08-16T16:43:00Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > My problem with the EPS is that it’s an incredibly blind, stupid bureaucracy, tends to overreach (and already its reach far exceeds its grasp). At this point, I think it may actually be doing more harm than good to the very environment it supposedly protects, simply because it tends to adopt really, really stupid top-down rules. Perhaps you’d like to offer some specific examples we could consider? ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/26 "2011-08-16T17:04:06Z")
I grew up in a suburb (Thornton) North of Denver. Our house was on a hill with a clear view South…a view mostly of a thick brown haze over Denver through the late 1960’s and 70’s. Today, the population of the area has about doubled, and traffic is about 3X. (Many households had only one car, and kids walked to school and baseball practice when I was growing up) And there is no brown cloud. When my Mom could no longer live in the old house in the mid 90’s you could clearly see downtown, and on mornings with an inversion, the haze was grey/white fog rather than Brown NOx. Thanks to fuel injection, cars now run properly at 5000’, start easily on frosty mornings, climb mountain grades even without a V-8, and get about double or even more the MPG. If it weren’t for EPA fuel economy standards, we’d still be cussing at carburetors. The EPA is the reason I can speak Richard Nixon’s name without spitting afterward. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/27 "2011-08-16T17:07:55Z")
No, the EPA should not be abolished. If the question is changed to “should the structure and practices of the EPA be reevaluated to make it more effective and efficient while giving the corporations and other groups under its jurisdiction more freedom to act in accordance with their individual needs as well as the collective needs of the society?”…well, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/28 "2011-08-16T17:13:26Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > No, the EPA should not be abolished. > > If the question is changed to “should the structure and practices of the EPA be reevaluated to make it more effective and efficient while giving the corporations and other groups under its jurisdiction more freedom to act in accordance with their individual needs as well as the collective needs of the society?”…well, yes. No-absolutely not. If you allow a business-controlled congress to “fix” the EPA, I can guarantee that it will not be for the benefit of the general public. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/29 "2011-08-16T17:24:44Z")
So does anyone have specific examples of the “overreaching” that EPA has apparently been doing? ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/30 "2011-08-16T17:54:24Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The EPA, and about 3/4 of the other government agencies, should be abolished because there is no Constitutional basis for its existence. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/31 "2011-08-16T17:59:46Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > If the question is changed to “should the structure and practices of the EPA be reevaluated to make it more effective and efficient while giving the corporations and other groups under its jurisdiction more freedom to act in accordance with their individual needs as well as the collective needs of the society?”…well, yes. As somebody who works fairly regularly with the EPA’s air regulations, I can say there is a lot of flexibility in the regulations, especially for smaller sources or modifications. Furthermore, the requirements for more rigorous emission controls scale with the air quality of the region. Even under the worst circumstances, business are able to propose alternative pollution control if it will result in equal or lower emissions. In other words, the EPA establishes the floor for controls. You’re free to do better. Water regulation is similarly flexible, to my limited knowledge. There are limits on the pollutants you discharge, but you can get to those limits by cleaning it using a wide variety of techniques. You’re limited in that you can’t let all the pollutant leach into the groundwater, but that would defeat the point of the water regulations. As I said, I work with the EPA or local districts implementing EPA regulation. There are plenty of headaches for my clients, but our hands have never been tied so completely we couldn’t find a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/32 "2011-08-16T18:02:26Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Cite? The Atlanta skyline between June and September. Is the sky supposed to be brown? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/33 "2011-08-16T18:03:36Z")
The idea that companies would simply pollute to their heart’s content if the EPA was abolished in a lot of fearmongering. Even if the EPA was abolished, most local municipalities would pass their own laws limiting how much a business could pollute (or they would offer incentives for a company to not pollute). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/34 "2011-08-16T18:06:53Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I haven’t looked at the matter overly much, but my time in government service was enough to convince me that even without the EPA, the law would still have to be followed and enforcement mechanisms would still be in place. So you are saying the EPA is superfluous? Nothing they do is not already covered by someone else who is equally good (or better) and enforcing regulations than the EPA? If you can make that case then maybe you’ve got something. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/35 "2011-08-16T18:08:12Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The idea that companies would simply pollute to their heart’s content if the EPA was abolished in a lot of fearmongering. Even if the EPA was abolished, most local municipalities would pass their own laws limiting how much a business could pollute (or they would offer incentives for a company to not pollute). Sure. Because historically that is exactly what has happened (see Cuyahoga River example above). :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/36 "2011-08-16T18:12:01Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The idea that companies would simply pollute to their heart’s content if the EPA was abolished in a lot of fearmongering. Even if the EPA was abolished, most local municipalities would pass their own laws limiting how much a business could pollute (or they would offer incentives for a company to not pollute). This seems like it would devolve into a “lowest bidder” scenario: the municipality willing to enact the most lenient ant-pollution laws is the one that’s going to host the most corporations. Moreover, part of the problem is that air and water pollution generated in one area can easily migrate to another. So Los Angeles sets strict pollution limits, and Santa Monica says “build your plant here and crank out as much toxic shit as you like;” LA ends up looking just like it did in the '60’s and '70’s. See [tragedy of the commons.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons) ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/37 "2011-08-16T18:13:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sure. Because historically that is exactly what has happened (see Cuyahoga River example above). :rolleyes: I’m sorry, but I was under the impression this is the year 2011, not 1960-whatever it was. The climate (not temperature) is a lot different now than it was forty plus years ago. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/38 "2011-08-16T18:16:49Z")
“Obey the rules or we will shut you down” seems a good incentive. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/39 "2011-08-16T18:21:06Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The idea that companies would simply pollute to their heart’s content if the EPA was abolished in a lot of fearmongering. Even if the EPA was abolished, most local municipalities would pass their own laws limiting how much a business could pollute (or they would offer incentives for a company to not pollute). Right. Because we all live in a corruption-free utopia where no company would elect its own stooges to the local government, remove all regulations and pollute away. In a company town where all the jobs are due to that company, they can get away with quite a lot. And, even if the people in that town were OK with trading health for jobs, how about the folks downstream and downwind? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888/40 "2011-08-16T18:24:41Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’m sorry, but I was under the impression this is the year 2011, not 1960-whatever it was. The climate (not temperature) is a lot different now than it was forty plus years ago. It sure as hell is-profits are hard to come by, so without the EPA corporations would be more likely to pull the old “Back off on the regulations or we’ll move somewhere else and shut your piss-ass town down!” routine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-abolish-the-epa/592888.md?page=3)