# Should we allow individuals to hold billions of dollars in their pockets? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2019, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614 "2019-01-29T11:30:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/41 "2019-01-29T17:52:28Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And that’s worth $123 Billion? > > I didn’t deny that Bezos had _something_ to do with that service. But because he owns it, he’s free to essentially _define_ his own value within those conditions, and he has defined it in a way that I (and many others) find patently absurd. Your organizational talent may be impressive, but when your workers are slaving under sweatshop conditions for pay barely above minimum wage so that you can make literally more money than you know what to do with… Something has gone wrong. Bezos does not get to define his own wealth. The stock market does that. If the workers at Amazon have better job offers they would take them. That they have not indicates that Amazon is paying the market rate for their job. Paying them more out of his own pocket would be charitable and charity is to be much admired. However, why are warehouse workers in America the best recipients of the charity. Wouldn’t poor Africans or Venezuelans be better recipients of charity. Than Americans whose income puts them in the top 25% of incomes worldwide? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/42 "2019-01-29T17:55:45Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That, and an armed police force to prevent the remaining few from breaking into my house and stealing everything I own. You can hire a security guard service. No state necessary. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I didn’t mean to suggest that it’s more legitimate, it is equally legitimate. The wealthy use their power and influence to better their financial position, why shouldn’t the less wealthy? > > I think it’s unrealistic (unfair, if you prefer) to expect the ownership class (or management class) of businesses to purposefully direct increased profits to their workforce, in any amount greater than necessary to run the business. That’s not how you run a business. > > OTOH, I feel that a broad distribution of increasing profits is better for society as a whole, building a strong middle class, demand growth, etc. So, I support a legal framework that allows businesses to pursue growth and profit with all the zeal that they have today, but directs a portion of that profit to the working class. Not directed via the generosity of the owner, but as a cost of doing business. Rich vs poor battle to control the state. Doesn’t sound like a functioning society. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes. So no, “wealth” hasn’t remained the same over time, but that tells us nothing about anything real in the world. “Make the pie bigger” is just smoke and mirrors. To me it means increase production. More pie, literally and figuratively. > [@](#): > > No, you can have a claim to it, either from societal support or from force (or both). But to suggest that you actually _created_ any of it is to laugh. So are large organizations like Amazon just natural growths with no creator? Doesn’t seem so. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/43 "2019-01-29T17:58:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes. So no, “wealth” hasn’t remained the same over time, but that tells us nothing about anything real in the world. “Make the pie bigger” is just smoke and mirrors. What it tells us is that wealth is not primarily the natural resources but the way people and technology are organized. Thus the way to make the pie bigger is to find more efficient ways to use the resources we have. Thus Bezos has made the pie bigger by finding more efficient ways for people to shop. If we then take away all the wealth from people who are trying to grow the pie, the pie will eventually stop growing and everyone will be worse off. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/44 "2019-01-29T18:07:49Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What it tells us is that wealth is not primarily the natural resources but the way people and technology are organized. Thus the way to make the pie bigger is to find more efficient ways to use the resources we have. Thus Bezos has made the pie bigger by finding more efficient ways for people to shop. If we then take away all the wealth from people who are trying to grow the pie, the pie will eventually stop growing and everyone will be worse off. We certainly should not take _all_ the wealth from those who grow the pie. However there is such a thing as marginal utility, meaning that we can slice 0.1% off of Bezos’s wealth and decrease his happiness by 0.00001%, and give that wealth to certain other people for, shall we say, a greater than 0.00001% increase in their happiness. And thus progressive taxes make societal sense. The tricky part, of course, is deterring tax dodging (including fleeing the country that’s doing the taxing). Persons who have the skills to amass ridiculous wealth also have the skills to keep it - by hook or by crook. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/45 "2019-01-29T18:10:26Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If we then take away all the wealth from people who are trying to grow the pie, the pie will eventually stop growing and everyone will be worse off. Only if they were getting some of the growth to begin with. If the growth was being siphoned off to the “people who are trying to grow the pie”, stopping the growth only makes them worse off. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/46 "2019-01-29T18:19:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > To me it means increase production. More pie, literally and figuratively. “production” isn’t something that just increases by magic. All that increased production comes from _somewhere_. > [@](#): > > So are large organizations like Amazon just natural growths with no creator? Doesn’t seem so. “Organiser” would be a better term than “creator”. “Amazon” is just the name for a particular arrangement of stuff that was already there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/47 "2019-01-29T18:22:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What it tells us is that wealth is not primarily the natural resources but the way people and technology are organized. It’s both. There’s a strong tendency to discount primary production nowadays, but that’s a mistake, IMO. > [@](#): > > Thus the way to make the pie bigger is to find more efficient ways to use the resources we have. Thus Bezos has made the pie bigger by finding more efficient ways for people to shop. This doesn’t magically produce more for them to buy, it just gets it to them quicker. That’s not a bigger pie, just one that gets eaten differently. > [@](#): > > If we then take away all the wealth from people who are trying to grow the pie, the pie will eventually stop growing and everyone will be worse off. That’s certainly what they’d tell you, yes… ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/48 "2019-01-29T18:22:27Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > We certainly should not take _all_ the wealth from those who grow the pie. > > However there is such a thing as marginal utility, meaning that we can slice 0.1% off of Bezos’s wealth and decrease his happiness by 0.00001%, and give that wealth to certain other people for, shall we say, a greater than 0.00001% increase in their happiness. And thus progressive taxes make societal sense. > > The tricky part, of course, is deterring tax dodging (including fleeing the country that’s doing the taxing). Persons who have the skills to amass ridiculous wealth also have the skills to keep it - by hook or by crook. Unfortunately, you have no means to say Bezos losing $500 and Joe Schmo gaining $500 increases utility in total. That is assuming that increasing “happiness” by .0001% is worth violent expropriation. Also ignores the costs of maintaining a state staffed with people to do the bureaucratic work. Question begging all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/49 "2019-01-29T18:26:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “production” isn’t something that just increases by magic. All that increased production comes from _somewhere_. > “Organiser” would be a better term than “creator”. “Amazon” is just the name for a particular arrangement of stuff that was already there. You said wealth has not remained the same over time. Seems like you are going back on that. Bezos’ organizational skills have brought great wealth through many many individual transactions. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/50 "2019-01-29T18:47:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You said wealth has not remained the same over time. Seems like you are going back on that. No? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/51 "2019-01-29T18:50:20Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Unfortunately, you have no means to say Bezos losing $500 and Joe Schmo gaining $500 increases utility in total. Of course I do - do you think I just _made up_ marginal utility? It’s a known factor and a real thing, and pretending otherwise is just laughable. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > That is assuming that increasing “happiness” by .0001% is worth violent expropriation. _Violent_ expropriation, eh? Why that’s not hyperbolic at all! Now I’m picturing a world where billionaires guard their wealth in armed fortresses and shoot approaching tax collectors. What a cinematic world! > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Also ignores the costs of maintaining a state staffed with people to do the bureaucratic work. Question begging all over the place. That’s not what “question begging” means, you know. And actually it’s pretty easy to cover the costs of hiring a bureaucracy when we’re talking about taxing _billionaires_. A billion is actually a pretty large number, in fact. Though to be entirely fair to you you appear to be picturing a wildly different sort of bureaucracy than I am, who has to collect taxes “violently”. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/52 "2019-01-29T18:59:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Of course I do - do you think I just _made up_ marginal utility? It’s a known factor and a real thing, and pretending otherwise is just laughable. You seem to think marginal utility can be used to compare interpersonal subjective values. It can’t, but that is a common pop-Econ mistake. You can say Bezos’ 1 billionth dollar is worth more to him than his next, but there is no framework to compare the value of his next dollar to Joe Schmo’s next dollar. You would have to overturn subjective value and you have not as far as I know. > [@](#): > > _Violent_ expropriation, eh? Why that’s not hyperbolic at all! Now I’m picturing a world where billionaires guard their wealth in armed fortresses and shoot approaching tax collectors. What a cinematic world! Threatening prison isn’t violent? > [@](#): > > That’s not what “question begging” means, you know. That was a separate comment. > [@](#): > > And actually it’s pretty easy to cover the costs of hiring a bureaucracy when we’re talking about taxing _billionaires_. A billion is actually a pretty large number, in fact. Though to be entirely fair to you you appear to be picturing a wildly different sort of bureaucracy than I am, who has to collect taxes “violently”. You missed the point. Your $1 from Bezos is not $1 to Joe Schmo. The government skims off the top for its share. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/53 "2019-01-29T19:02:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Threatening prison isn’t violent? No, instituting laws isn’t violent. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/54 "2019-01-29T19:05:34Z")
Best compromise might just be to allow people to be billionaires but put a marginal tax rate of 90% on all income past that $1 billion mark. At that point, you’re not in need of money. If someone truly wants to persist in making movies or manufacturing some product to keep going, then at that point they’re doing it for love of the job or whatever passion drives them, not money. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/55 "2019-01-29T19:08:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No, instituting laws isn’t violent. :rolleyes: Tell that to Freddie Gray. Have you been to jail or prison? Obviously it depends on the law. If you are threatened with prison for voluntary exchange, that is an initiation of violence. If you are threatened with prison for murder, no. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/56 "2019-01-29T19:19:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Tell that to Freddie Gray. If I acknowledge that you wrote this I will have no choice but to conclude that you have no goddamn clue what you’re talking about - as in, you don’t even understand what topic is under discussion. Drawing that conclusion would be uncharitable though, so I will ignore the fact that you wrote it. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Have you been to jail or prison? > > Obviously it depends on the law. If you are threatened with prison for voluntary exchange, that is an initiation of violence. If you are threatened with prison for murder, no. This is veering wildly off-topic, but I will reiterate that no, instituting laws for things - even minor things, like traffic violations - is not a violent act. Arguing otherwise isn’t going to convince me of your correctness, either. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/57 "2019-01-29T19:20:17Z")
I think the question is nonsensical. People with that sort of money may have that much “wealth”, but they do not have that much “cash”. There is a difference. It’s not like your local billionaire can just go to the ATM and withdraw a few million from his account and then hand it to the homeless person around the corner. That said, they still do have access to amounts of liquid assets that most of us do not. Clearly, there are people who have more than they and their family can spend in one lifetime. But the money keeps coming-in, without them having to do anything. Is it possible for someone like Bezos or Gates to just call someone and tell them “Whelp, I have enough now, go ahead and turn-off the spigot!” Can Larry Ellison just write a check for one of his billions to the homeless shelter? I guess that is how investment works - you put in your time, your money, your assets, and expect to be rewarded financially for putting-up these things and taking the risk. Sometimes you lose, and sometimes you win. Some people were lucky, and continue to be lucky, with their investments. But there seems to be a point where your risk was rewarded enough. I agree that $1B is difficult to get our head around. Even $1M is hard to imagine. It seems like taxing people a tiny portion of their wealth, say 0.001% (or even less) for anything over $1B would net enough funds to provide a roof, 2 meals a day, and basic medical care for everyone in our country who is lacking those things. The billionaires would hardly miss it, and can continue purchasing luxury dog houses and islands all they want. The amount is a pittance to them. But whoa! Now we are talking about wealth distribution! And taking dollars from the wealthy will suppress the economy, and slow hiring! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/58 "2019-01-29T19:24:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If I acknowledge that you wrote this I will have no choice but to conclude that you have no goddamn clue what you’re talking about - as in, you don’t even understand what topic is under discussion. Drawing that conclusion would be uncharitable though, so I will ignore the fact that you wrote it. > > This is veering wildly off-topic, but I will reiterate that no, instituting laws for things - even minor things, like traffic violations - is not a violent act. Arguing otherwise isn’t going to convince me of your correctness, either. Then give a straight answer. Is “instituting laws” that threaten prison for failing to pay taxes a violent act. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/59 "2019-01-29T19:32:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Then give a straight answer. Is “instituting laws” that threaten prison for failing to pay taxes a violent act. > [@begbert2](#): > > No, instituting laws isn’t violent. :rolleyes: … ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614/60 "2019-01-29T20:22:35Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I agree that $1B is difficult to get our head around. Even $1M is hard to imagine. It seems like taxing people a tiny portion of their wealth, say 0.001% (or even less) for anything over $1B would net enough funds to provide a roof, 2 meals a day, and basic medical care for everyone in our country who is lacking those things. Well, let’s run the math. There are [624 billionaires in the USA](https://www.billionairemailinglist.com/billionaires-list.html). From what I can find, the top 400 of them hold $2.48T. Assuming the other 224 have a billion apiece, that would be a total of $2.72T. 0.001% of that is $2.72B. How much housing, food, and medical care can we deliver for that? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-allow-individuals-to-hold-billions-of-dollars-in-their-pockets/828614.md?page=4)