Should we ALWAYS tell the truth?

These are so common in our culture
Out of curiousity, Dopers with experience in other cultures, Is this a worldwide phenomenon?

I think the “polite” fictions are just used because we’re lazy or out of a cultural habit. So many of the comments about honesty are in the opinion category.
being put on the spot makes it tricky. It takes some thought that we’re not always capapble of at a moments notice. If we decide to make the effort to be truthful then we get better at it.

“Isn’t she a beautiful bride?”

“aren’t they all?”
you might even simply answer yes if you see a certain beauty in a celebration of love and committment.

for the cynical I recommend the humourous approach. “I’m committment phobic, I can’t tell”

If telling the truth leads to more happiness than telling lies, then telling the truth is the right thing to do. So far, your arguments that that is always the case have been vague and without backup.

Why do you think the method which leads to more happiness is always the better choice? What if you find out later that something was a lie; doesn’t that make you less happy than you would have been if someone had told you the absolute unpleasant truth? What is so important about “happiness” that makes it preferable to honesty? Nothing makes me more sad than seeing the mindgames people put themselves and others through; if everyone told the truth I would be a lot more happy because the world would make sense then. Am I really so abnormal in this respect?

I believe that absolute honesty is one of the most important things we can strive towards as a civilization, and that part of our intellectual evolution should be the stripping away of the emotional weakness that makes us believe lies are preferable to truth. It bothers me that even such things as physical facts have to be manipulated for the sake of “happiness,” because that means it is a false happiness and the whole thing snowballs and it’s like I’m living in a world of unreality. I’ll lie if I feel it’s socially mandated (“does this make me look fat?”) but I am really unnerved by it and typically tend to resent the person who forced me into lying. They’re forcing me into a false reality and like, my ties to this reality are strained as is. It’s selfishness, that’s what it is.

Why is saying something that’s true (especially if it’s a subjective truth like an opinion about clothes… it’s not like what I’m saying might be true for everyone) considered rude? I mean, if you don’t like what he says you can just ignore it; people who are so tied up in their own version of reality that they force other people to lie to make them “happy” shouldn’t be beholden to what the other person says. Such people see other people as just mindless reflectors of their own thoughts, instead of independent beings. Why should what honest people say matter so much to you?

Because I believe happiness is the only thing worth striving for. I can’t see what else there would be to strive for.

Probably, and if so the lie was the wrong choice, as it caused less happiness than the truth would have.

Happiness, well, makes people happy. I think we agree that’s a good thing. Honesty doesn’t do anything by itself. What makes honesty preferable to happiness? Would you rather be desperately unhappy and never lied to, or ecstatically happy and living in a world of lies? I’ll pick the second, Bob. I don’t even know they’re lies.

No. I’m all for telling the truth, generally speaking. Most of the time, it is the right choice. But I do not believe that telling the truth is automatically the preferrable choice over lying. I can’t think of one thing that I would never ever do; I can always think up circumstances, however convoluted, that would make it the right choice.

If you have a family of Jews in your basement (or Tutsis, or Christians, or left-handed redheads, or whoever it is they’re persecuting), then I would say you have something of an ethical obligation to lie, and to lie as convincingly as you are able to do so. It’s certainly not the time to get cute and start playing little word games with a bunch of murderous thugs. If your lies are successful, I don’t think you would have the slightest thing to feel guilty about or to seek “forgiveness” for afterwards, either.

It’s not that I think “human life is infinitely precious” or that preserving human life in every situation trumps every other ethical principle. But I think resisting injustice, tyranny, and evil is a good and proper thing to do.

Of course “Anne Frank is hiding in your attic” a rather extraordinary situation, and shouldn’t be used to justify becoming a pathological liar who people can’t even trust to tell them if it’s raining outside or not. “Everything in moderation, including moderation”.

Yes, nothing more than opinion. Without turning to spititual beliefs I’ll think about this and try to be more specific as to why honesty can lead to a more lasting joy.

I didn’t mean to seem casual about people’s lives. It’s not just word games. It’s living your principles. I don’t agree with the ethical obligation to lie. There’s no more guarentee that a lie would work than the act of telling the truth but not giving them away. Obviously you would be nervous and your fear might give the lie away.

My contention is that a rigorous commitment to honesty and truthfulness in word and deed is better for the individual and the society. We accept a lot of dishonesty in a lot of areas with a shrug, “Thats just the way it is” It’s like an infection that doesn’t seem life threatening so we just live with it.

This is a truly brilliant thread.

No, seriously.
really, I mean it
it’s the truuuuuth!

for your contribution.

[voice=Jack Nicholson]
You can’t handle the truth!

[/voice]

:slight_smile:

When the Nazi asks you the question, “Are you harboring Jews?” the only answer that you are supposed to give is either “Yes” or "No’.

Not answering the question by the most appropriate answer, although aware of it, is pretty much lying itself.

" please don’t harm us I don’t want any trouble" or "Come in see for yourself " are nothing more than attempts to circumvent the truth, and are not truth by themselves.

Lying is also a way to circumvent the truth and so by giving ambiguous answers or answers that deflect from the truth, while you may have not lied in absolute terms, you have not been truthful either.

From the movie Thief:

I try to live by this :slight_smile:

[QUOTE]

Is that a rule in the Nazi handbook?

This is an interesting point of view but I don’t agree. Is this a philosophy you learned somewhere or just opinion?

If a stranger says "How much money do you earn per year and I respond “Thats really none of your business” Am I circumventing the truth? I don’t think so.

True. My point is just because someone asks you a yes or no question we are are not obligated by honesty to divulge facts we don’t want to share.

Added to the above point.
It is a question of intent. Is the intent deception? Allowing them to search, which they would do anyway, is not an attempt to decieve. It is letting the conclusion be their own without interfering one way or the other.

I belong to the group that believes in telling the truth, but with qualifiers.
Sometimes, people will insist on being “truthful” even though they know it is hurtful or spiteful, and will do nothing good.

Q: Look at these pictures of our new baby. Isn’t she adorable?
A: Ack! Shit! What a horrible little troll!
It’s the truth as you see it, but what good comes from it? It’s just mean. Maybe little Baby Gollem will grow out of it. Better to oooh and aaah.

Q: Is Anne Frank here?
A: No.
That one is cut and dry. Even if you think lying is evil, by telling the truth you are aiding and abetting a far greater evil. By lying, you are doing the right thing. If you simply evade, “Colonel Klink” will figure something is going on and order a search. If you just lie and do it well, he will go away.

This is a topic I’ve thought quite a lot about, so I’m going to go and try and attempt and put down what I think here.

Briefly put, I’m going to be trying to argue for an absolutist position of that we should always tell the truth - or that at least to take this as one’s personal policy is a coherent idea. A lot of this comes down to instinct and my own persoanl personal prejudice, so whether I’ll be succesful or not is another very different matter, but anyway… :slight_smile:

First thing is to clarify what I mean when I say that you should always tell the truth. I think it’s probably better and more helpful to think of it as promising never to directly and intently lie. That is, you’re allowed to joke, to exaggerate for effect, to not always be right because you might be mistaken. You are also under no obligation to volunteer full information - being tactful and keeping your mouth shut is obviously a very useful option… To lie is to state what you know is false with deliberate intent to decieve. Both of those conditions are needed. I even think that you should be allowed to deliberately deceive people with the truth, as long as you do it by taking advantage of their preconceptions or by withholding information rather than direct falsehood.

I realise that that’s a very different line to draw exactly, and some people might ask what exactly the fundamental difference is. I confess that again it at least partially it comes down to an instinctive feeling that there’s difference between ‘not being stupid’ and trying to get the better of someone, and making use of the lie direct. Trying to justify this, I think it comes down to a trust issue, that at the very core of it if you want the truth for someone, you can always ask them a simple direct question. If I want the truth, I should be able to get either it or simple silence.

I think it’ll probably next be helpful if I split the cases where it is often argued that one should lie into two areas: firstly, the trivial “yes, honey, those trousers look great on you” area, and secondly, the hiding from the Nazis more extreme area.

The first area I guess concerns broadly what we normally call white lies. Tiny dishonesties to ease social interactions and make sure nobody gets hurt.

Well, simply put, I don’t believe in them. Again, I think there’s a lot to be said for tact, and knowing what to say and what not to say, and how to focus on the positive. However, I honestly feel if you lie to me you demean me as a person, and ultimately I would rather know something if I ask for it that is the truth, as it’s the only way to help me improve in the long run.

(I’m not convinced that many examples in this case are real lies either, to be honest, as I think a lof of the time when an opinion is asked both people know that they’re going to flatter each other, so the intent to decieve is not really there, but that’s a side issue.)

The second issue, and the far harder one for an absolutist like me to answer, is the Nazi case. I’m very well aware that any principle I claim is good to hold would probably break down in the heat of the moment anyway and I would lie to save them, but that is neither here nor there - the question is, should I act that way?

Let me build up to this point by means of two routes, first by looking at why truth is valuable, and second by looking at a case in between the white lies and Nazi cases.

I believe truth is a noble thing. I believe there are things greater than life and death. I believe truth is one quality that separates us from the randomness and chaos of nature and makes us something better, gives us dignity. I believe that without there is a danger of the world becoming random, of becoming meaningless. I believe that truth leads to knowledge leads to greater understanding of the world. I believe knowing that someone will always tell me the truth is a core part of me trusting them, and I need trust and a core sense of knowledge to make sense of the world. I believe the world would be a far greater place if nobody lied in any situation, and although that’ll never be the case, it doesn’t hurt to at least set an example.

To try and understand why I would reccomend truth even if would seem to bad consequences, I’d draw an example of asking someone to deny their religious faith. Should a Christian deny their faith to save someone else’s life? To save them some pain? To save them a mild inconvenience? I think it is arguable, at the very least, and that’s a key sense of what I’m getting at here. Of course you could argue that trying to equate faith in God with faith in the truth is ridiculous, and perhaps you’re right - but people find different ways to define meaning in their lives.

So, to summarise up to here, I think there would have to be extreme, extreme reasons to even begin to think about falsehood, and that the usual best stance to take is to tell the truth. How am I judge when it is appropriate to lie? My best answer is that I feel I am likely to be a terrible (and most likely extremely biased, trying to think of the easy way out) judge in matters like this, and am the last person who should be judging. As in 99.9% of cases I feel I am inadequate to judge, not being omniscient and not having full knowledge of the details and possibilities of any situation, I default to trying to attempt to always tell the truth.

But, the sceptics would very reasonably reply, what if one of those 0.1% of cases occurs? What if the Nazi situation comes up? My answer to this is that it is almost certain that you can mislead the Nazi in other ways, by selective reples and leaving out information. Telling lies is unlikely to be neccesary.

Okay, but what if the absolute worst does happen, let’s simplify it to a man holding a gun to someone’s head, and if you don’t lie that person will definitely lie. Well, again, I repeat that I would probably break and lie at this point. However, there are a few reasons why I think you might not: firstly, you still hold yourself as an uncompetent judge and fear that if you let any exceptions into your absolute view it will become a slippery slope, and so will not even allow this; you are prepared to sacrifice the life for some higher purpose, a belief that humanity is better than this, more noble than falsehood, and that again, life/death aren’t everything.

To which the reply comes, stop being a pretentious fool, your principles aren’t worth someone’s life. Which is possibly true, but I think there’s at least an argument to be made against it, because without principles, we’re pretty much nothing, really.

An example:

My brother is a bit… touched, as they said in my grandmothers day. He’s perfectly functional in many ways, it’s just that his judgement is off kilter and he really needs somebody to guide him through a lot of decisions that many of us think are “simple”.

But we’re the sort of family that allows one to do their own thing, to make their way as you will, even if we “know” the decisions are incorrect. So even though we thought my brothers decision to live apart from us in Atlanta (we live in Knoxville, TN) was not in his best interest… hey, he’s an adult he can make his own choices, 85 IQ or not.

Well, things went pretty much as predicted, with my brother being taken advantage of by redneck after lowlife after redneck - becoming surrogate parent to their kids while they go get coked up, always being hit up for money/rides/etc. Finally even he saw that he wasn’t doing well by anybody’s standards and decided to move to Knoxville. My parents, glad to see him come back, gave him a job at the family business, where he worked in the office doing manual labor and maintainance work, being paid FAR beyond what one could reasonably expect for his duties - $50,000/year for $18,000/year work, being immediately 100% vested in the corporate 401(k), etc. Plus, working for the family biz, there were other benefits that most people wouldn’t expect from their employers - a more relaxed attitude towards arbitrarily taking the day off, for example.

However, being of unsound mind, my brother got it in his mind some time ago that he doesn’t like “office work”, that he doesn’t like working in an office, etc etc etc. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t doing “office work”, that 50% of the time he was doing manual labor in one of the companies warehouses, he just didn’t like working in an office. And so he got it in his mind that he hated working at my parents company because a lot of the manual stuff he did was at the office.

As mentioned before, he’s one of those who says BS statements like “I have to tell the truth regardless, because to do other is to be untrue to myself and my true emotions” and the like.

So, during a birthday celebration, my stepmother asks

“So, Jim, do you like your job?”
“No. I can’t stand it.”

He didn’t think, didn’t care about the advantages that he had, didn’t think about the fact that he was grossly overpaid for the work that he was doing, didn’t care about the fact that my parents didn’t have to take him in (as I mentioned, we’re glad to let each other fuck up). He just felt (I know because I discussed this with him later) that since he hates “office work” he would not have been truthful to himself in telling my stepmother that he liked his job. And the fact that he was being rude and inconsiderate to 2 people who largely extracted him out of a bad situation (I didn’t mention the five-figure no-repayment-necessary “loans” he was extended to pay off his debts) was irrelevant - by God and by Damn he wasn’t going to lie to her, and by extension, himself. :rolleyes:

Well, he quit two weeks later, took a job where he now has to work from 4:30am to 5:00pm delivering cases of soda for ~$10/hour (no overtime), he hates it, and you know what?

That’s his tough shit. You make the bed you sleep in.

So, to answer your question, it matters to me (and I’m unable to just “ignore it”) because his overblown sense of “honesty” has made his life harder, poorer, and his future more uncertain. And it made my parents less likely to help him again in the future when (not if, for my brother making bad decisions in the future is as certain as yesterdays sunrise) he needs it.

But, hey! At least he didn’t have to lie! That would’ve been wrong!

:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]

your example is about an objective opinion not fact. In matters where our honest opinion will just hurt someone I try to look for the good and positive in the situation or to use humor to avoid hurting anyone.

Thats twice someone has used this example with the implied ethical lieing. It’s the qualified “do it well” that bothers me. Do you really think it’s realistic that Klink would believe No from any Jew he suspected of hideing another?

Evasion might indeed arose suspicion. The same is true of a less than convinceing lie. Face it. There’s no way to really measure which is better for the purpose of saving those in hideing. There is a way to gauge which one is truthful. Personaly I think the meek, surrender to the search approach is pretty viable.
I conceed that there is little to feel guilt about for lieing under these circumstances. That was never my contention.
It is that in situations where we use some justification to lie there is an alternative choice that includes the truth.

bonus comment; From one of my favorite truth tellers, Qwai Chang Cain
“Faced with two evils, any man must choose”

Well John, it sounds like you should have posted this in the Pit.

This is not a simple question of honesty or truthfulness.

JohnT: It sounds like your brother’s problems have more to do with his ingratitude than his honesty. Though I have to wonder if your stepmother’s question was leading: if she knew that he hated his job, then it was a trick to ask him that, and she should have just flat-out said “I know you hate your job, let’s talk about that” instead of playing a mindgame. Also remember, some people are such bad liars that it’s sort of pointless for us to do it. Maybe he figures it’s better to tell the truth and be “rude” than to lie and have people think that he’s both a liar and an ingrate.

But as I have said, it does make me desperately unhappy when people lie. When you lie, the world makes just a little less sense, reality starts to slip away, and that “happiness” you feel when someone tells you a painfully obvious white lie (and it is obvious–if you have to ask if you look fat in an outfit you probably do; you should usually go with your first instinct on stuff like that) turns bitter and stale and painful and you (I?) just want to run away and hide until the world makes sense again, which it never does. Maybe other people don’t think that, I don’t know. I don’t think my views are SO different, though–I think people have been conditioned to think lies are appealing and that all social conventions should be glossed over with a fake aura of “niceness.” I think most people would like it if the world made sense; we may not think so because we’re so used to superficial happiness, but if the world made logical sense we would experience a much more deep and lasting kind of happiness, since our social interactions would have a kind of predictability and we wouldn’t be shocked or ruded out when someone “wrongly” tells the truth (or, conversely, feel embarrassed and ashamed when someone tells you a nice lie that you know is undeserved). I have a hard time believing that white lying is instinctive; I think it’s something we’ve foisted onto ourselves because most people are scared of reality and don’t want to face it. We’d rather hang around a bunch of parrots than a bunch of other human beings with their own minds. And that makes me pretty unhappy. I must be defective.

(And just to clarify: when I say that in an ideal society people should always be truthful I’m not talking about the Anne Frank scenario. I would lie there, even though I’m such a bad liar that I’m sure it would fail. Although, in an ideal society there would be no Anne Frank scenario, so it’s kind of a moot point.)

Given the circumstances in which I knew that telling a lie would relieve a great deal of suffering, or feed the hungry or save a life, of course I would lie! And that doesn’t mean that I don’t place great personal importance on truth. I just think that integrity involves more that truth sometimes.

But I don’t think that some of you have thought about what a lie really is. If you are willing only “technically” to tell the truth, but still mislead by not telling the full truth or getting by with leaving out pertinent information because you were not asked specifically, then your truthfulness is not as absolute as you think.

BTW, if an adult asked me if a dress makes her ass look big and the dress didn’t accomplish that, I would not hesitate to tell her. Nothing wrong with a small ass anyway. I just hope she has the sense to ask before going out just in case she wants to try something to make her butt look bigger.