# Should we attack Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775 "2012-09-15T07:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/201 "2012-09-22T16:29:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What bearing does the regularity of an event have on its acceptability? And while it’s clear that many have reached for emotionally charged rhetoric, please provide a logical analysis of why presenting political opinions during a political election during which voters will vote based on their politics is somehow “meddling”. [The definition of meddling](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meddling): > [@](#): > > to interest oneself in what is not one’s concern : interfere without right or propriety Is Netanyahu an American? Is this an American election? It’s meddling. You may not mind it, but it’s meddling. It’s really simple. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/202 "2012-09-22T16:32:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, it’s quite easy. Iran has attacked US military forces on multiple occasions causing hundreds of casualties and was allied with Al Queda before 9/11. None of these actions were seen by the US as a casus belli. The idea that Iran would need to defend themselves from us if they dropped their nuke program/instituted the Additional Protocols, to say nothing of if they completely severed their relationships with Hezbollah and Hamas? Well, it just doesn’t make any sense. If they can attack us and we won’t strike their nation directly, then if they disarm we’d have even less provocation. > > Imagine I go punch a dog. Repeatedly. The dog doesn’t bite me. Then I buy a gun. You ask me why. I say “I need protection from that damned dog!” OK, so if the nukes aren’t intended as a deterrent to the US, then why should the US get exercised about them? Sounds like Israel’s problem (and maybe some of the Arab nations). The US should not involve itself, it seems to me, if we are to follow your logic. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/203 "2012-09-22T16:36:18Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Is Netanyahu an American? Is this an American election? It’s meddling. Somehow you read a definition which clearly shows this isn’t meddling, and then turned it on its head to conclude, yep, meddling. The idea that the US’ reaction to Iran is not a concern of Israel is an absurdity. To claim that someone exercising free speech and speaking during an American election cycle is doing so without the “right” to do so is furtherly absurd. > [@Spoke](#): > > if we are to follow your logic. When you start following along with my logic, I’ll let you know. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/204 "2012-09-22T17:19:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t speculate on any amount of damage. **Sitnam** suggested the point of a war would be stopping Iran from trying to pursue “self-defense,” which is a silly claim to make since the issue is the nuclear program specifically, not “self-defense.” I said the point of a war (which I oppose) would be convincing Iran that their nuclear ambitions aren’t worth the trouble. Whether you oppose it or not, it makes a lot more sense than “We bomb them with such force that they decide not make self defense a priority?” Debating their true motive now for developing a nuclear weapon will be moot if we attack them, because then their goal surely will be self-defense. Our method of persuasion so far has been sanctions, say what you will about their effectiveness at least refusing to trade isn’t an offensive action. Right now there is turmoil within their leadership with many different viewpoints on how to proceed and many different obligations/threats in their sphere. American bombs falling from Israeli planes will focus a diverse nation to one course of action, exactly the one we don’t want. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/205 "2012-09-22T18:28:18Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > (…) will focus a diverse nation to one course of action, exactly the one we don’t want. Maybe you and few more - maybe even heavy majority don’t want it - but it’s really not up to you and that majority. If success of Iraq war project is any indicator there is no notion of “checks and balances” currently in place in the mechanics of US Government that can prevent attack on Iran. If it happens it will happen on a reasoning that you wont understand, you may not even appreciate and you and majority of US citizens wont have any tools or methods available to stop it. Right now, you have a PM of a foreign country telling to a portion of US citizens — over which he know he casts a shadow of influence, otherwise, he would not do it — pretty much saying that you have a POTUS right now who’s not doing what **I want** him to do so could you please elect a POTUS that **I know** will do what I want. It’s happening and there’s nothing you can do. But, at least, you live in a democracy with freedom of speech where you can say what ever you want… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/206 "2012-09-22T18:35:28Z")
You seem to have neglected to clarify the numerous odd bits of your previous posts here. The one about the US being a Banana Republic and congressional voting being similar to the Soviet Union. One might just think you were alleging something untoward. > [@newcomer](#): > > Right now, you have a PM of a foreign country telling to a portion of US citizens — over which he know he casts a shadow of influence, otherwise, he would not do it Ooooh, spooky, “a shadow of influence”. Of course, he might also be someone who has an opinion and is trying to convince Americans to agree with him. But obviously it’s something much more sinister. However, if this person has a “shadow of influence”, why would he have to be in political ads at all? Surely such a powerful figure with a “shadow of influence”, who we must be ever vigilant of, wouldn’t have to use Republican presidential ads to use his influence, right? What with being able to make politicians do what he wants (rather than finding politicians who agree with him.) What method, by the way, do you suppose he is using to make politicians “do what he wants”? > [@newcomer](#): > > It’s happening and there’s nothing you can do. Someone’s making political comments during a political election cycle where the issues are political… and there’s nothing you can do about it. Dun dun dun!!! Sends chills down my spine, it does. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/207 "2012-09-22T18:59:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …To claim that someone exercising free speech and speaking during an American election cycle is doing so without the “right” to do so is furtherly absurd… Meddling is just a perception of another person’s involvement in a social affair, such as an election. This is common knowledge and encapsulated in the definition. Most people readily understand that foreign powers are overstepping their boundaries when involving themselves in a nation’s election. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/208 "2012-09-22T19:38:34Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Meddling is just a perception of another person’s involvement in a social affair, such as an election. This is common knowledge and encapsulated in the definition. Most people readily understand that foreign powers are overstepping their boundaries when involving themselves in a nation’s election. Did the US government “over-step” during Israel’s 1992 elections when President Bush made far more negative comments about Shamir than Netanyahu made about Obama, and, for obvious reasons, far more Israeli voters care about the opinion of the American President than American voters care about the opinions of the Israeli PM. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/209 "2012-09-22T20:16:11Z")
When someone spends money to persuade you to vote for war candidate it’s usually called a “war mongering” and the person persuading a “warmonger”. Cue in semantics brigade… 3… 2… 1… ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/210 "2012-09-22T20:21:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Did the US government “over-step” during Israel’s 1992 elections when President Bush made far more negative comments about Shamir than Netanyahu made about Obama, and, for obvious reasons, far more Israeli voters care about the opinion of the American President than American voters care about the opinions of the Israeli PM. :rolleyes: Bush was criticizing re: Ilegal Settlements which was totally in his domain to do. Some think it was a bad move that led to his loss of 2nd Presidential bid - [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201627\_4.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201627_4.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/211 "2012-09-22T20:42:00Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Bush was criticizing re: Ilegal Settlements which was totally in his domain to do. > > Some think it was a bad move that led to his loss of 2nd Presidential bid - [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201627\_4.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201627_4.html) Bush repeatedly made it clear that he wouldn’t deal with Shamir and that if the Israelis wanted a better relationship with the US to choose a different leader. This was something exploited by Yitzhak Rabin in his successful campaign to remove Shamir. Your link even notes that Shamir was voted out because “Israeli voters blamed Shamir for overplaying his hand.” As for the idea that his stance on Israel cost Bush re-election? Please. Anyone who believes that is either willfully blind, paranoid about Jewish influence, or completely ignorant of the 1992 election. George H. W. Bush has spoken repeatedly about his presidency and loss and he never once made that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/212 "2012-09-22T20:46:15Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I think there is still a chance to resolve this situation without violence, and I’d like to see that happen. We don’t need another war, even one limited to air strikes and cruise missiles. We need to get our fiscal house in order, and more military adventures aren’t going to help the process. Ooo do I see a split developing between money-conservatives and military-conservatives? Please tell us more. I’ll go get Orville. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/213 "2012-09-22T20:57:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyone who believes that is either willfully blind, paranoid about Jewish influence, or completely ignorant of the 1992 election. > > George H. W. Bush has spoken repeatedly about his presidency and loss and he never once made that claim. You should re-read the article I cited. Also, take a look (real part starts@ 2:15) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr1R\_2GeuAA](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr1R_2GeuAA) 90% rating in 1991 and lose election? Since both of us cannot be “willfully blind” I’m okay with the label. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/214 "2012-09-22T21:27:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Imagine I go punch a dog. Repeatedly. The dog doesn’t bite me. Then I buy a gun. You ask me why. I say “I need protection from that damned dog!” It’s more like punching a rhino, it having no effect, and then buying a gun for protection because the rhino trampled your children and flattened the village next door. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/215 "2012-09-22T21:58:58Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Meddling is just a perception of another person’s involvement in a social affair, such as an election. This is common knowledge and encapsulated in the definition. Most people readily understand that […] You are wrong on several counts, Inbred. As you cited the definition I thought you’d care what it meant. The denotation clearly shows that it’s not meddling if one has the right to act in that context, and free speech guarantees that right, and if it’s a matter in which they have valid concern. As such, people can’t “understand” that it’s meddling, since it aint. They can, however, feel that it’s meddling. Or, if you want to talk about the “common knowledge encapsulated in the definition”, what’s really going on is that they’re using a connotation of meddling. Or, in other words, they’re just saying that they don’t like Netanyahu’s opinions being voiced in an American medium. Which is fine, but that doesn’t make it meddling. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/216 "2012-09-22T22:02:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Did the US government “over-step” during Israel’s 1992 elections when President Bush made far more negative comments about Shamir than Netanyahu made about Obama, and, for obvious reasons, far more Israeli voters care about the opinion of the American President than American voters care about the opinions of the Israeli PM. I don’t know all the details, but from what I read of it, I would not be surprised if there were Israelis who found Bush to be meddling. I am sure those Israelis who found it aversive were disproportionately in favor of their settlement activities. Not that I give a shit nor understand what point it is you think you are making. I’ve had my fill of war-mongering assholes making speeches about imaginary life or death scenarios in my country for the remainder of the century. Netanyahu is unwelcome here as far as I am concerned, especially when he opens his mouth. In general I hope some other forces will someday dominate Israeli politics but until then I’d be glad to not hear from any of them. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/217 "2012-09-22T22:02:58Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > 90% rating in 1991 and lose election? Gosh, I wonder why Bush Sr. had such a high approval rating in 1991 but lost the election next year. Oh wait, your youtube link is to “George Bush Sr. Postwar Speech.” His extremely high temporary approval rating couldn’t have anything to do with just decisively winning the war with Iraq with full UN backing and approval and minimal loss of US soldiers lives. His falling numbers over the next year must obviously have been the Jew’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/218 "2012-09-22T22:07:23Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > His falling numbers over the next year must obviously have been the Jew’s fault. It’d be the punctuation, here, that matters. I wonder if the apostrophe comes before or after the S. Hopefully newcomer will elaborate on his perception that American voting is “Soviet” style or exactly what this “Shadow of Influence” is like. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/219 "2012-09-22T22:11:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You are wrong on several counts, Inbred. As you cited the definition I thought you’d care what it meant. The denotation clearly shows that it’s not meddling if one has the right to act in that context, and free speech guarantees that right, and if it’s a matter in which they have valid concern. As such, people can’t “understand” that it’s meddling, since it aint. They can, however, feel that it’s meddling. Or, if you want to talk about the “common knowledge encapsulated in the definition”, what’s really going on is that they’re using a connotation of meddling. Or, in other words, they’re just saying that they don’t like Netanyahu’s opinions being voiced in an American medium. Which is fine, but that doesn’t make it meddling. I’ve said all that, repeatedly. I just am an adult, aware of my opinions and biases, and not shy of using the word “meddling” when it is clearly appropriate. I think Netanyahu is lying scum as well. Maybe I will go tell an Israeli about it and start some meddling. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/220 "2012-09-22T22:13:14Z")
That’s the issue though, it’s emotionally manipulative and an incorrect use of the word. There’s significant daylight between 'I don’t like that politicians and I think he should stick a rotten potato in his face and shut the fuck up" and “His comments, about an issue that concerns his nation and which are allowed via free speech, they’re meddling!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775.md?page=12)