# Should we attack Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775 "2012-09-15T07:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/241 "2012-09-28T03:59:59Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Patrick Clawson, Director of Research at Washington Institute Of Near East Policy - that little bastard child of AIPAC with a glamorous title - is not advocating “false flag” operation. > > He is merely “suggesting”. Since neither you nor the two co-authors of the article you linked seems to know what false flag means, for your [edification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag): > [@](#): > > False flag (also known as black flag) operations are covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by other entities. The name is derived from the military concept of flying false colors; that is: flying the flag of a country other than one’s own. False flag operations are not limited to war and counter-insurgency operations and can be used during peace-time. This is not what that ‘little bastard’ is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/242 "2012-09-28T11:08:42Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Since neither you nor the two co-authors of the article you linked seems to know what false flag means, for your [edification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag):This is not what that ‘little bastard’ is talking about. That’s exactly what I expected from the “learned”. New argument goes like this… well, yeah, he is talking about THAT but THAT is not THAT you think it is. This “false flag” is a “legitimate” and quote normal thing in the circles of AIPAC funded “think thanks”. Falls in the same category as “legitimate rape” argument. Call it for what it is - a foreign entity calling for war in US. That’s all it is. I’m not going into your reasons for creating this mental state and paradigm in which what this dude is talking about is a normal and typical talk for academics. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/243 "2012-09-28T13:18:22Z")
Yes, we should…Bibi Netanyahu showed us that “Wile-E-Coyote” bomb with the “Red Line”. It is obvious that we need to…Bibi said so!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/244 "2012-09-28T14:03:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Who does your pronoun refer to? This guy: > [@newcomer](#): > > Patrick Clawson, Director of Research at Washington Institute Of Near East Policy - that little bastard child of AIPAC with a glamorous title - is not advocating “false flag” operation. > > He is merely “suggesting”. > > I must admit I thought I was watching some MadTV sketch or something. > > The speech is real, however. > > They don’t even bother to hide it. > [@newcomer](#): > > That’s exactly what I expected from the “learned”. > > New argument goes like this… well, yeah, he is talking about THAT but THAT is not THAT you think it is. This “false flag” is a “legitimate” and quote normal thing in the circles of AIPAC funded “think thanks”. > > Falls in the same category as “legitimate rape” argument. > > Call it for what it is - a foreign entity calling for war in US. That’s all it is. I’m not going into your reasons for creating this mental state and paradigm in which what this dude is talking about is a normal and typical talk for academics. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/245 "2012-09-28T16:25:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I mean, [I understand why you might not](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15528421&postcount=21), but why not give it a whirl? Don’t try to circumvent the rules on personal insults, **FinnAgain**. Keep the insults in the Pit without making them part of your commentary in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/246 "2012-09-28T16:51:15Z")
A for effort on the attempt, though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/247 "2012-09-28T17:30:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Don’t try to circumvent the rules on personal insults, **FinnAgain**. Keep the insults in the Pit without making them part of your commentary in this forum. Sorry, I thought that the rule was that if you want to insult someone, you should link them to a Pit thread in which you were insulting them. Is that only the rule if you’re starting a Pit thread about them, not insulting them in the Pit? Just asking for clarification, not arguing, whatever you decide is cool. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/248 "2012-09-28T17:32:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Sorry, I thought that the rule was that if you want to insult someone, you should link them to a Pit thread in which you were insulting them. Is that only the rule if you’re starting a Pit thread about them, not insulting them in the Pit? Just asking for clarification, not arguing, whatever you decide is cool. The rule is that you can’t insult other posters unless you’re in the Pit. It’s considered a courtesy to tell people if you are Pitting them, but linking to an insult in the Pit is really the same as insulting them directly. So don’t do that here. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/249 "2012-09-28T17:37:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This guy: Newcomer has gone on record in the past as supporting 9/11 Trutherism and has danced around making specific accusations as to what connections he believes the Mossad had with 9/11. It’s been clear that he thinks there’s _some_ connection, but up until now he’s Just been Asking Questions. He’s apparently come closer to making an actual statement this time. First he claimed that Israel wants to launch a false flag operation (one in which it pretends to be another group, say, a bunch of Arabs with box cutters) and they do something naughty so the other group gets blamed. Newcomer then connected it with his 9/11 Trutherism by stating that “This time make sure you don’t dance on a van and give each other high-fives” The reference to dancing and high-fiving is to a bunch of Israeli assholes who were working for a moving company and who were happy when 9/11 happened because the US would join with Israel’s attitudes about terrorism. Newcomer believes,or at least has suggested, that they were all agents of the Mossad and, now evidently, that 9/11 was an Israeli false flag operation. His reference to 'That bombing in Bulgaria did not work as planned. Keep trying…" refers to the recent murder of a bus full of Israeli tourists in Bulgaria, and newcomer is evidently claiming that that, too, was an Israeli false flag operation in which they murdered their own citizens in order to frame someone else. Iran, I would assume. I can’t really make heads or tails out of the other posts that you quoted, though, except that newcomer sure seems perturbed about something or another having to do with Israel. Also that he won’t admit that he was wrong when he claimed that “[a] Lobbyist Says Israel Should Create A ‘False Flag’ To Start A War With Iran”, despite the fact that such a claim appears nowhere in the lobbyist’s actual words by any possible stretch of the imagination. > [@Marley23](#): > > The rule is that you can’t insult other posters unless you’re in the Pit. It’s considered a courtesy to tell people if you are Pitting them, but linking to an insult in the Pit is really the same as insulting them directly. So don’t do that here. So noted, sorry for the misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/250 "2012-09-28T18:10:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Also that he won’t admit that he was wrong when he claimed that “[a] Lobbyist Says Israel Should Create A ‘False Flag’ To Start A War With Iran”, despite the fact that such a claim appears nowhere in the lobbyist’s actual words by any possible stretch of the imagination. That’s correct. The lobbyist is suggesting (suggesting, not advocating) that the US should get nastier with covert operations. In order to provoke Iran in making an attack so that the US would be justified in declaring war. So, indeed ‘False Flag’ is wrong in the title of the article. And we should focus on that, instead of what this lobbyist is advocating. Sorry, suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/251 "2012-09-28T18:21:10Z")
Well, that, and it’s not at all clear that he’s saying _Israel_ should be conducting such an operation. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/252 "2012-09-28T18:33:21Z")
What a bizarre twist with endless minutiae with semantics with only one goal – to deflect from common sense. If only you guys would allow 1% of this semantics circus to Ahmedinejad’s “wipe off the Earth” comment there would be some merit in what you’re saying. The only proof I could accept is when Patrick files a lawsuit against Business Insider for slander. Until then, your proof sleeps with fishes (meaning, it’s dead in the water). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/253 "2012-09-28T18:36:14Z")
First, it’s libel, not slander. Second, he’s a public figure. His odds of winning a defamation suit are approximately 1 in [insert large number]. Third, the Business Insider is just as capable of being incompetent as it is deceptive - particularly since they didn’t know what a false flag operation is. Where do _you_ see that he’s talking about an Israeli operation? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/254 "2012-09-28T18:41:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Did the US government “over-step” during Israel’s 1992 elections when President Bush made far more negative comments about Shamir than Netanyahu made about Obama, and, for obvious reasons, far more Israeli voters care about the opinion of the American President than American voters care about the opinions of the Israeli PM. Yes ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/255 "2012-09-28T18:58:24Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > If only you guys would allow 1% of this semantics circus to Ahmedinejad’s “wipe off the Earth” comment There were no semantics involved, Ahmadinejad’s own translators certified the translation which we were told was inaccurate. [ > [@](#): > > If Mr. Steele and Mr. Cole are right, not one word of the quotation — Israel should be wiped off the map — is accurate. > > But translators in Tehran who work for the president’s office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than “vanish” because the Persian verb is active and transitive. > > The second translation issue concerns the word “map.” Khomeini’s words were abstract: “Sahneh roozgar.” Sahneh means scene or stage, and roozgar means time. The phrase was widely interpreted as “map,” and for years, no one objected. In October, when Mr. Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini, he actually misquoted him, saying not “Sahneh roozgar” but “Safheh roozgar,” meaning pages of time or history. No one noticed the change, and news agencies used the word “map” again. > > Ahmad Zeidabadi, a professor of political science in Tehran whose specialty is Iran-Israel relations, explained: “It seems that in the early days of the revolution the word ‘map’ was used because it appeared to be the best meaningful translation for what he said. The words ‘sahneh roozgar’ are metaphorical and do not refer to anything specific. Maybe it was interpreted as ‘book of countries,’ and the closest thing to that was a map. Since then, we have often heard ‘Israel bayad az naghshe jographya mahv gardad’ — Israel must be wiped off the geographical map. Hard-liners have used it in their speeches.” > > The final translation issue is Mr. Ahmadinejad’s use of “occupying regime of Jerusalem” rather than “Israel.” > > To some analysts, this means he is calling for regime change, not war, and therefore it need not be regarded as a call for military action. Professor Cole, for example, says: “I am entirely aware that Ahmadinejad is hostile to Israel. The question is whether his intentions and capabilities would lead to a military attack, and whether therefore pre-emptive warfare is prescribed. I am saying no, and the boring philology is part of the reason for the no.” > > But to others, “occupying regime” signals more than opposition to a certain government; the phrase indicates the depth of the Iranian president’s rejection of a Jewish state in the Middle East because he refuses even to utter the name Israel. ]([http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?_r=0)) ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/256 "2012-09-28T19:06:09Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > That’s exactly what I expected from the “learned”. The ability to use words correctly rather than say there’s glory for you? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/257 "2012-09-28T19:55:01Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The ability to use words correctly rather than say there’s glory for you? All I’m saying, unless that tape is a parody of sorts or, perhaps, an audition tape for stand-up comedy act… the only message that can be summarized for it is that Patrick is advo… pardon me, suggesting nefarious methods of instigating a war with Iran, methods commonly referred to as “false flag operation”. However, as always I welcome spin so please, could you summarize what he’s saying? Please note, “summarize” and not a 10 page essay. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/258 "2012-09-28T22:03:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My main concern is their support for terrorism. Right now, if they go too far, we just make them pay dearly. We can do military action against them if they go too far. If they have nukes, we can’t. And personally, I think that’s why they want them. So they won’t have to show any restraint and fully unleash Hezbollah. Are you under the impression that they have been showing any restraint that they would not show if they had the nuke—like Israel? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > **Marley** , that’s not the point. > Now let’s all get angry at Israel. Would it be acceptable for Iran to have a similar policy of opacity like Israel? Or is the fact that Iran is effectively a muslim theocracy a disqualifying factor? > [@Dissonance](#): > > They’re already a member of the club and show no interest in acting wisely. That club is called the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which Iran signed, ratified and agreed not to develop nuclear weapons. North Korea at least invoked article X and left the NPT, and India, Israel and Pakistan never signed the treaty. So what is the benefit of membership and what are the penalties of breaking the treaty? Or is it more like the migratory bird treaty, an understanding of basic principles that everyone agrees is good for all concerned? Why do people act like this NPT is a big deal. We HAD our opportunity to tell the world in no uncertain terms that nuclearization by a rogue regime would lead to military consequnces but we did NOTHING to North Korea. They nuclearized during Bush. How in the world would we justify attacking Iran but not North Korea? Korea has been a major non-NATO ally at least as long as Israel. Korea is technically at war with North Korea. Korea is at least as strategically important as Israel. Sure North Korea has close relations with China but China dn Russia are both taking Iran’s side on this, do we risk a world war over Iran’s nuclearization? > [@Whambulance](#): > > The problem isn’t that they can or are developing nuclear weapons it’s that if they do there aren’t the normal checks and balances in place in Iran. The world would have nuclear weapons that were governed not by a conscientious governing body or democracy but by a small number of relatively radical individuals. You mean like North Korea? > [@](#): > > The real fear is that even if they do develop nukes and maintain the appearance that they are stewarding them properly, they could covertly hand them off to a terrorist cell and we or someone else could be looking at a couple million casualties in a city like New York. The autocracy or leaders in Iran at the time could just shrug and say “We do not condone terrorist activity .. it sucks being you, I wonder what happened”. You mean like North Korea? > [@](#): > > A nuclear presence may just require a bit more responsibility than you’d find in a present day Iran. You mean like North Korea? I hate the idea of nuclear proliferation generally and in my ideal world, we would get rid of all nuclear weapons and all nuclear power plants would be run by UN nuclear scientists and guarded by UN peacekeepers. But that’s not going to happen because we aren’t going to agree to give up our nukes even though getting rid of nukes globally would actually increase our military dominance (seriously, no three countries combined can beat us in conventional warfare). BUT, we can’t go attacking people for developing weapons technology that we have but don’t want them to have. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/259 "2012-09-28T22:07:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Or is the fact that Iran is effectively a muslim theocracy a disqualifying factor? Is “yes” supposed to be the wrong answer here? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775/260 "2012-09-28T23:49:41Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > All I’m saying, unless that tape is a parody of sorts or, perhaps, an audition tape for stand-up comedy act… the only message that can be summarized for it is that Patrick is advo… pardon me, suggesting nefarious methods of instigating a war with Iran, methods commonly referred to as “false flag operation”. > > However, as always I welcome spin so please, could you summarize what he’s saying? Please note, “summarize” and not a 10 page essay. You are able to read written English, correct? I already explained that you that you and the co-authors of the article you linked are not using the phrase ‘false flag’ correctly, and that what Patrick is advising or suggesting (I don’t give a flip about the semantics) isn’t a false flag operation. Rather succinctly as well in a short paragraph; fantasies of 10 page essays doesn’t do much for your credibility. Secretly sinking an Iranian submarine is not a false flag operation. Here, I’ll repeat for you what a false flag is: > [@](#): > > False flag (also known as black flag) operations are covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by other entities. The name is derived from the military concept of flying false colors; that is: flying the flag of a country other than one’s own. False flag operations are not limited to war and counter-insurgency operations and can be used during peace-time. An example of a false flag operation using something you seem to want to believe those sneaky Jews are planning would be if Israel sank an Iranian submarine while somehow convincing everyone that they were Americans so that Israel would avoid blame and frame America for the sinking. Seeing as how submarines operate, I’m at a loss as to how this would even be possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-attack-iran/634775.md?page=14)