# Should we ban misogynism in the Pit? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 9, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329 "2020-06-09T23:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/1 "2020-06-09T23:03:24Z")
I tend to think the answer should be no. I am starting from the position that all content is acceptible unless a reason is given for them to be banned. I haven’t yet seen a reason that I find convincing, and presumably neither have the moderators since no such rule yet exists. Here is an example of what I consider to be misogyny: “_Again, the male is by nature superior, and the female inferior; and the one rules, and the other is ruled; this principle, of necessity, extends to all mankind._” ~Aristotle’s _Politics_, book V Now, let me knock down a couple arguments (which may or may not be straw-men, I can never tell): An argument can be made that misogynism contributes to a hostile environment. My counter is that the Pit _is_ a hostile environment, by design. An argument can be made that misogynism causes discomfort or offense to some when read. I see this as identical to the above argument. An argument can be made that misogyny drives away non-misogynists which will eventually turn the board into an echo chamber of misogyny. I must deny the premise because to do otherwise leads to the absurd conclusion that misogyny cannot be countered with open debate. Keep in mind that we already have rules banning trolling, harrassment, and hate speech, even in the Pit. Prompted by [THREAD=896201]a recent thread[/THREAD] which _I_ thought was about whether certain curse words ought to trigger the Pit’s hate speech restrictions. For those who would ban misogynist hate speech but not all forms of misogyny, or those who think all forms of misogynist language count as hate speech, please see that thread. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/2 "2020-06-09T23:36:29Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > An argument can be made that misogynism contributes to a hostile environment. My counter is that the Pit _is_ a hostile environment, by design. Not… really. Not in that sense. When I’m in the Pit, I don’t sense any hostility directed _at me_. The thing is, we have actual women who read and post here on the SDMB, incuding in the Pit. (And I, for one, would like to keep it that way.) And if you’re a woman, then misogyny is hostility (or hatred, or disdain, or objectification, or something toxic like that) directed _at you_, for who/what you are. That’s different from hostility directed toward people or things external to the board. And when hostility is directed toward people on the board—that is, when Dopers are Pitted—usually it’s either because they’ve said or done something to deserve it, or the Pitting is undeserved, in which case people usually show up to defend said Doper and the Pitting either fizzles out or backfires. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/3 "2020-06-10T00:10:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not… really. Not in that sense. When I’m in the Pit, I don’t sense any hostility directed _at me_. > > The thing is, we have actual women who read and post here on the SDMB, incuding in the Pit. (And I, for one, would like to keep it that way.) And if you’re a woman, then misogyny is hostility (or hatred, or disdain, or objectification, or something toxic like that) directed _at you_, for who/what you are. > > That’s different from hostility directed toward people or things external to the board. > > And when hostility is directed toward people on the board—that is, when Dopers are Pitted—usually it’s either because they’ve said or done something to deserve it, or the Pitting is undeserved, in which case people usually show up to defend said Doper and the Pitting either fizzles out or backfires. Would you consider an F-bomb directed your way to be hostility? How about an accusation of trolling? If someone makes a sexist or misogynist remark, people are free to point out how undeserved the hatred is, whether it targets a specific member or not. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/4 "2020-06-10T01:53:09Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Here is an example of what I consider to be misogyny: > “_Again, the male is by nature superior, and the female inferior; and the one rules, and the other is ruled; this principle, of necessity, extends to all mankind._” ~Aristotle’s _Politics_, book V Just out of interest, do you believe that an explicit statement about men’s superiority, and women’s inferiority (such as the one in your example), is necessary in order to define something as misogyny? I would just like to be able to gauge exactly _ **how** _ stupid your argument is, before rejecting it wholesale. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/5 "2020-06-10T02:10:53Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Just out of interest, do you believe that an explicit statement about men’s superiority, and women’s inferiority (such as the one in your example), is necessary in order to define something as misogyny? > > I would just like to be able to gauge exactly _ **how** _ stupid your argument is, before rejecting it wholesale. No, I do not believe an explicit statement is required. Misogyny can be implied, too. Here is a hypothetical example from the linked thread, In a thread about mall shopping, out of the blue, “Stop by Starbucks. Bitches love Starbucks.” I think it’s intentional [misogyny]. The implication is that all women are bitches. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/6 "2020-06-10T02:17:20Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > An argument can be made that misogynism contributes to a hostile environment. My counter is that the Pit _is_ a hostile environment, by design. Do you think all hostility is exactly the same, or do you think that the Pit allows all hostility? If you don’t, your counterargument doesn’t really carry much weight. If you do, you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > An argument can be made that misogynism causes discomfort or offense to some when read. I see this as identical to the above argument. The counterargument suffers identical flaws, yes. > [@](#): > > An argument can be made that misogyny drives away non-misogynists which will eventually turn the board into an echo chamber of misogyny. I must deny the premise because to do otherwise leads to the absurd conclusion that misogyny cannot be countered with open debate. That would be an absurd conclusion, but it absolutely isn’t a reasonable conclusion based on the argument. For certain values of “countered,” at least. Misogynists tend to be wrong, but they tend not to deal in facts. Open debate requires a good-faith debater, and countering a misogynist with open debate is kind of like explaining to your geriatric hound dog why he shouldn’t keep farting in the TV room. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/7 "2020-06-10T02:22:09Z")
Would you apply your same argument towards racism? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/8 "2020-06-10T02:26:04Z")
Follow up. I just want to be clear: you are arguing for the specific inclusion of misogyny on the Board. Is that right? I vote for not doing that. Since we have extensively litigated misogyny on the Board for a few years now, I do not feel obliged to explain myself. Just, no. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/9 "2020-06-10T02:35:45Z")
Sure, go ahead, have fun, work out. Enjoy the ensuing sausage fest because the women will be outta here so fast your head will spin. Ain’t nobody got time to deal with men and their feefees about not being able to be shitty to and about women. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/10 "2020-06-10T02:44:42Z")
This thread should be moved to the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/11 "2020-06-10T02:45:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you think all hostility is exactly the same, or do you think that the Pit allows all hostility? If you don’t, your counterargument doesn’t really carry much weight. If you do, you’re wrong. You’re right, not all hostility is the same. And I don’t think the Pit allows (should allow) all kinds of hostility. Twisting the dagger after someone says they have cancer is too hostile for me to defend. Telling someone to actually hurt themselves or others is too far. Hate speech - intentional hatred of women because they are women - is too far. What is it about misogyny that makes it “too far” or “beyond the pale”, even in the Pit? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That would be an absurd conclusion, but it absolutely isn’t a reasonable conclusion based on the argument. For certain values of “countered,” at least. > > Misogynists tend to be wrong, but they tend not to deal in facts. Open debate requires a good-faith debater, and countering a misogynist with open debate is kind of like explaining to your geriatric hound dog why he shouldn’t keep farting in the TV room. By “countered”, that could mean a formal debate, but it could also mean the misogynist is shunned. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/12 "2020-06-10T02:46:47Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Would you apply your same argument towards racism? Why or why not? Yes, I would. I see misogyny as being to women like racism is to minority races. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/13 "2020-06-10T02:52:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > By “countered”, that could mean a formal debate, but it could also mean the misogynist is shunned. > > ~Max Shunned or ridiculed. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/14 "2020-06-10T04:24:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You’re right, not all hostility is the same. And I don’t think the Pit allows (should allow) all kinds of hostility. Twisting the dagger after someone says they have cancer is too hostile for me to defend. Telling someone to actually hurt themselves or others is too far. Hate speech - intentional hatred of women because they are women - is too far. What is it about misogyny that makes it “too far” or “beyond the pale”, even in the Pit? Attacking people because of their membership in a class that’s traditionally been the subjects of violence and oppression unrelated to their own acts is a real shitty thing to do, way beyond calling someone a dillweed or goat-felcher. > [@](#): > > By “countered”, that could mean a formal debate, but it could also mean the misogynist is shunned. Or, y’know, kicked out by the bouncers. Turn this around on you: why shouldn’t we ban misogyny in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/15 "2020-06-10T04:29:59Z")
So, OP, you want to bring back **Ed Zotti’s** language restrictions to the Pit? That wasn’t very popular the first time around. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/16 "2020-06-10T04:52:09Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > So, OP, you want to bring back **Ed Zotti’s** language restrictions to the Pit? That wasn’t very popular the first time around. Disregard this. I misunderstood the argument. I’ll show myself out. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/17 "2020-06-10T05:44:40Z")
No, the OP is right. This idea is that racism is bad- except in the Pit. That bullying and Cyberstalking is Ok- if in the Pit. (It’s not, it is totally illegal). That Misogyny is ok- in the Pit. Etc etc etc-\* is just wrong. \* So= let us abolish the Pit \*as a place with special rules. \*The Pit should have the exact same rules as the rest of the board. It should be a place of rants, not racism, Misogyny, bullying or yes- not even personal insults. Maybe it can be the one place where a POST being “trolling” could be discussed- or maybe that should be ATMB. Yes, \*\*cochrane \*\*is right-Ed Zotti’s language restrictions in the Pit were _not_ very popular the first time around. But maybe we have grown since then. Maybe we can dump those words now. I know, I know, I am still sorta attached to the idea of being able to use \*any and all \*nasty words vs certain public figures. But I can give that up. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/18 "2020-06-10T10:20:42Z")
Same. Was a prolific user of the word “cunt” in the Pit after it came back, haven’t used it for a little while now, can’t say I’d miss it (or the me that thought that was OK). I am not in favour of dropping _all_ special rules for the Pit, though. It should be the place where we can call out trolls. Or offer _personal_ insults to other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/19 "2020-06-10T15:02:11Z")
Kinder, gentler Dope for the Teeming millions! ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329/20 "2020-06-10T16:05:05Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Sure, go ahead, have fun, work out. Enjoy the ensuing sausage fest because the women will be outta here so fast your head will spin. Ain’t nobody got time to deal with men and their feefees about not being able to be shitty to and about women. At least this one starts out where all the other ones end up. Max S. just didn’t feel like his posts in the still-active misogyny thread were getting sufficient attention. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329.md?page=2)