# Should we ban ritual slaughter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518 "2012-09-22T18:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/1 "2012-09-22T18:27:28Z")
I don’t really give a crap what happens to chickens, but when you’re talking about higher order animals like sheep and cows the ritual slaughter methods commonly in used in shechita (jewish slaughter of animals) and dhabia (mulsim slaughter of animals) are I consider now accepted by mainstream scientists to be unquestionably cruel to the animal - effectively it dies through exsanguination, that is to say bleeding to death. This is shown to cause immense anxiety in a conscious animal due to the hypoxia IF THE ANIMAL IS NOT RENDERED SENSELESS BEFOREHAND. This is quite different from the normal practice in secular slaughterhouses where the animal is stunned beforehand. In almost all civilised countries it is a legal requirement in slaughterhouses to render the animal sensless; however in many of these civilised countries there is ALSO a religious exemption. Quite simply, liberal minded folk are having their minds bent by their two principles of religious “tolerance” and minimising cruelty to animals, and pioritising the former (although fortunately this does seem to be changing country by country in the EU). Now so far as I’m aware neither Islam nor Judaism mandates meat consumption. So much like both religions contain rules on what you can do with your slaves that are restricted by our more civilised values, I see no reason why both cannot continue to practice their religion while eating salad and beans OR of course they can change their religion to be more civilised which of course is a matter of interpretation - for example there is a minority view in Islam that if the animal is stunned in way in which it could theoretically recover before the blood is taken then things are fine, and I don’t see a reason to have a problem with this. I say that this animal abuse should be halted immediately. Slaughter should happen according to scientifically endorsed humane standards and religious ideas should have no input whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/2 "2012-09-22T18:35:07Z")
Can you provide some cites? My understanding is that federal law and even PETA agree that kashrut slaughter is the more humane method. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeBabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SnakeBabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeBabe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/3 "2012-09-22T18:35:20Z")
So much of what is done in factory farms to 10 bilion animals a year in America is equal or worse so why only question religious slaughter and why do you exclude chickens? Don’t they feel pain also? As for humane standards take a look at [meatvideo.com](http://meatvideo.com) and see what is permissible and considered humane. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/4 "2012-09-22T18:38:36Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Can you provide some cites? My understanding is that federal law and even PETA agree that kashrut slaughter is the more humane method. Well maybe American standards are even worse, I don’t know. In which case you need to sort everything out and that includes ritual slaughter. I can only talk from a UK perspective really, where we already have extremely high standards of animal care. There are various cites linked from [this briefing document by the National Secular Society](http://www.secularism.org.uk/uploads/ritual-slaughter-of-animals-briefing.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/5 "2012-09-22T18:44:00Z")
Interestingly you will see that a large portion of the Halal meat in the UK is pre stunned which as I said is fair enough. The Kosher meat is probably the biggest problem as it seems Jews are more extreme on this issue than Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/6 "2012-09-22T19:26:02Z")
Temple Grandin, a leading authority on humane slaughter, says kosher slaughter is humane when done properly. Kosher slaughter involves cutting the carotid arteries and jugular veins. Talking about the animal being conscious after that kind of sudden, major blood loss reminds me of discussion of the [consciousness of a decapitated head](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1172/does-the-head-remain-briefly-conscious-after-decapitation)–for all practical purposes, it’s lights out. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/7 "2012-09-22T19:44:16Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Temple Grandin, a leading authority on humane slaughter, says kosher slaughter is humane when done properly. > > Kosher slaughter involves cutting the carotid arteries and jugular veins. Talking about the animal being conscious after that kind of sudden, major blood loss reminds me of discussion of the [consciousness of a decapitated head](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1172/does-the-head-remain-briefly-conscious-after-decapitation)–for all practical purposes, it’s lights out. Right, so you can listen to someone who is most famous for having a condition that is famous for causing difficulty with empathy, or you can listen to a whole committee of unbiased experts who came up with [QUOTE=Farm Animal Welcfare Committee] _Pain and distress during exsanguination_ 1. We have carefully considered the representations we have received which have put forward the view that a neck cut is not painful provided it is a rapid, uninterrupted movement carried out with an extremely sharp knife. It is difficult to measure pain and distress during the slaughter process in an objective scientific manner and subjective indicators, such as behavioural responses and vocalisation, are prevented from being displayed because of the degree of restraint and the severance of the trachea respectively. By the same token, it is impossible to state with objectivity that an animal would not feel pain and distress following such a procedure. 1. When a very large transverse incision is made across the neck a number of vital tissues are transected including: skin, muscle, trachea, oesophagus, carotid arteries, jugular veins, major nerve trunks (e.g. vagus and phrenic nerves) plus numerous minor nerves. Such a drastic cut will inevitably trigger a barrage of sensory information to the brain in a sensible (conscious) animal. We are persuaded that such a massive injury would result in very significant pain and distress in the period before insensibility supervenes. 2. Additionally, on one visit, we observed the slaughterman place his hand into the neck wound of cattle immediately after the cut had been made, presumably to try to ensure the free flow of blood from the severed carotid arteries (see ‘occlusion’ below). This procedure in itself is, in our view, likely to cause further unnecessary pain and distress and is also unlikely to achieve its objective. Recommendation 1. Where an animal has not been stunned, the OVS must ensure that nothing is inserted into the neck wound post-cut. Time to loss of brain responsiveness 1. Loss of sensibility post-cut can be detected by observing brain function through electroencephalographic methodology - a lack of response indicating certain insensibility or death. The scientific evidence shows that sheep become insensible within 5-7 seconds of the cut (3-7 seconds in goats).\*\* Adult cattle, however, may take between 22 and 40 seconds to become insensible. This period may be extended should occlusion of the carotid arteries take place. Work done on calves has shown a variation in period to insensibility from 10-120 seconds depending on the extent of occlusion of the carotid arteries or ballooning in blood vessels. Furthermore, a separate study of brain response after Shechita slaughter of cattle compared to that after captive-bolt stunning indicated responses for up to 60 seconds in the former and no response in the latter. (The difference in the times to loss of sensibility between the various species is due to anatomical differences in the blood supply to the brain). \*\* 2. Occlusion refers to a phenomenon observed in a proportion of cattle, and particularly in calves, when the carotid arteries have been severed transversely. Very rapidly after the cut, the carotids may, by virtue of their elasticity, retract into their own external connective tissue coat. The connective tissue becomes filled with blood, which then clots thereby occluding the flow of blood from the severed arteries by sealing the cut ends. Because the heart is still beating, the blood pressure in the anterior aorta is maintained and hence also in the vertebral artery. This latter vessel supplies the brain and is not severed during the neck cut. Occlusion therefore has the effect of delaying insensibility for a considerable period and therefore increases the time during which an animal may be experiencing severe pain and distress. 3. Overall, we have looked at slaughter without pre-stunning against the basic principles set out at the beginning of our report which aim to ensure the welfare of animals at slaughter (see Paragraph 8). We consider that at least two of these principles – pre-slaughter handling facilities that minimise stress and induction to a period of unconsciousness without distress – are not satisfactorily observed. Given that the exemption from pre-stunning is subject to the requirement that unnecessary suffering is not inflicted, we consider that the Government should take steps to repeal this exemption. Recommendation 1. Council considers that slaughter without pre-stunning is unacceptable and that the Government should repeal the current exemption. [/quote] In other words, the experts are pretty clear that this stuff is horrific. And that’s if it goes correctly, which it doesn’t necessarily as you can see in practice 199. Funnily enough if this god character existed I’m sure he would have designed the poor calves a bit better. Entire report is at [http://www.fawc.org.uk/reports/pb8347.pdf](http://www.fawc.org.uk/reports/pb8347.pdf) **What this boils down to is pretty simple - should the religious be given a break on animal welfare law?** ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/8 "2012-09-22T19:49:57Z")
I confess to having a very Japanese attitude at times, and I do not feel much empathy for food. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/9 "2012-09-22T19:57:43Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > **What this boils down to is pretty simple - should the religious be given a break on animal welfare law?** In the U.S., the answer is yes, per [Church of the Lukumi Bablu Aye v City of Hialeah](http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-948.ZO.html) ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/10 "2012-09-22T20:17:28Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > In the U.S., the answer is yes, per [Church of the Lukumi Bablu Aye v City of Hialeah](http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-948.ZO.html) From a VERY bried skim it seems that sacrifice is needed for that religion, where as here there’s no NEED to slaughter animals in a religious way because as I said people can just eat beans. But you are also answering a slightly different question. I am not so fussed about what the law currently says, but what about what it ought to say. (I PERSONALLY think the way the free exercise clause is currently interpreted is very silly but that’s not a discussion I want to get involved in) ---
**Author:** ![SnakeBabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SnakeBabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeBabe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/11 "2012-09-22T20:50:53Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > … > > Entire report is at [http://www.fawc.org.uk/reports/pb8347.pdf](http://www.fawc.org.uk/reports/pb8347.pdf) > > … Thanks for the link ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/12 "2012-09-22T21:05:32Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Right, so you can listen to someone who is most famous for having a condition that is famous for causing difficulty with empathy, or you can listen to a whole committee of unbiased experts who came up with What on earth does empathy have to do with coming up with ’ scientifically endorsed humane standards"? I would imagine that in a discussion about whether an animal is experiencing pain or trauma, a lack of empathy would be a net positive, since that scientist would be focusing entirely on data and not anthropomorphizing the subjects or projecting onto them. Can you also back up your implication that Temple Grandin is biased, or did you not mean to imply that? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/13 "2012-09-23T00:50:13Z")
Here’s a vid that shows the difference between humane slaughter and religious slaughter: [This Is Halal - Animal cruelty exposed. - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_bZzxep87c) It’s horrific but you should watch it if you want to see the truth. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/14 "2012-09-23T01:40:15Z")
Don’t watch any deer hunting videos unless you want to get really upset. Also are you aware that many shellfish are cooked alive? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/15 "2012-09-23T02:12:15Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > In other words, the experts are pretty clear… To me, they sound pretty tentative. Their findings are heavy with qualifications “can’t say for sure that it’s not painful,” “inevitably,” “on one occasion,” etc. And it’s not necessarily clear that they’re unbiased. Several members of the FAWC are non-kosher farmers (i.e., competitors) or have career ties to that industry. > [@Oakminster](#): > > In the U.S., the answer is yes, per [Church of the Lukumi Bablu Aye v City of Hialeah](http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-948.ZO.html) Notably, too, the court found that there was significant evidence that that law was motivated by religious hostility rather than animal-welfare concerns. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/16 "2012-09-23T02:48:42Z")
If you sever the carotid artery the animal is going to be dead very quickly and unconcious even sooner. How is that cruel? Unless you are against the slaughter of animals for food, an entirely valid position, but irrelevant to this debate. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/17 "2012-09-23T02:57:46Z")
[Here](http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/printhalalstudy.htm)is a translation of a German study done on whether any pain was felt by animals during “ritual cutting”. They concluded that it was not > [@](#): > > 1. Slaughter in the form of ritual cut > > A. Calves > After the bloodletting cut loss of reaction (loss of consciousness) occurred with high probability within 10 seconds. A clear reaction to the cut could not be detected in any animal. For 7 animals a zero EEG was recorded no later than after 23 seconds. Cramps occurred in the animals regularly only after the brain currents had stopped. > > B. Sheep > After the bloodletting cut loss of reaction (loss of consciousness) occurred after 10 seconds the latest. A clear reaction to the cut could not be detected in any animal. The zero line was recorded no later than 14 seconds after the cut. Cramps only occurred after the zero line had been detected and were much shorter than after captive bolt stunning. > > The slaughter in the form of ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to the EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/18 "2012-09-23T05:03:27Z")
I’m not a religious person. But I do place the rights of human beings (including the right to practice their religion) ahead of the rights of animals (including the right to only be killed in certain ways). It’s not an absolute for me - I can certainly think of issues where I’d put an animal right ahead of a human right - but on this issue I’m coming down on the human side. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/19 "2012-09-23T05:44:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > [Here](http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/printhalalstudy.htm)is a translation of a German study done on whether any pain was felt by animals during “ritual cutting”. > > > [@](#): > > > > A clear reaction to the cut could not be detected in any animal. I wonder how they were determining what constitutes “a clear reaction,” which seems pretty subjective. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m not a religious person. But I do place the rights of human beings (including the right to practice their religion) ahead of the rights of animals (including the right to only be killed in certain ways). It’s not an absolute for me - I can certainly think of issues where I’d put an animal right ahead of a human right - but on this issue I’m coming down on the human side. What if there were a belief system practiced by humans that maintains it is immoral to kill animals, or to kill them in that way (ritual slaughter), or to allow/tolerate/permit _other people_ to kill them in that way, thus creating equal and irreconcilable opposing “rights” among humans? Would the animals count as a tiebreaker in such a case? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518/20 "2012-09-23T06:01:04Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > What if there were a belief system practiced by humans that maintains it is immoral to kill animals, or to kill them in that way (ritual slaughter), or to allow/tolerate/permit _other people_ to kill them in that way, thus creating equal and irreconcilable opposing “rights” among humans? Many religious groups oppose abortion, yet is is legal. Many religious groups oppose gay marriage, yet it is gaining traction in more places all the time. Some religious groups insist that it should be illegal to draw cartoons of Mohammed , but it isn’t in this country. Essentially, a religion is free to dictate policy/belief for its adherents (subject to some restrictions), but not for anyone else. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-ritual-slaughter/635518.md?page=2)