# Should we be able to sue non-vaccinating parents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145 "2013-08-13T18:27:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/81 "2013-08-14T13:56:46Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > No one’s arguing seriously in favor of concentration camps. Or Texas which is probably worse in August. 😉 > > Certainly no intelligent pro-vax advocate argues that vaccines don’t carry risks, however small. Suggesting otherwise is a misreading of many of the responses in this thread. The problem is what do you do when someone deliberately ignored health measures and spread dangerous and infectious diseases? > > I’m personally not in favor of mandatory vaccines. I am in favor of making life as difficult as possible for those who don’t vaccinate for non-medical reasons. This would include telling them to homeschool or avoid becoming a nurse if they do not want to get a flu shot each year. It also seems reasonable to me that you need to be vaccinated for admittance into the U.S. - barring a medical reason not to be. So if you want to go overseas - great, to get back in you’ll need to have had your shots. It seems like more than one of these outbreaks has been “unvaccinated family on missionary trip.” And to meet the compulsory education need, I’d support charter schools that allow unvaccinated kids - although the charter school needs to inform parents that they allow unvaccinated kids. A regular public school - not unless there is a medical reason (And completely off topic, I love the name Dorit.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/82 "2013-08-14T13:59:55Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > It’s actually correct- parents are allowed to decline any medical treatment for their children. > In some cases, a court will overturn that refusal. Cite? But note that your second statement adds a point that **jayjay** did not acknowledge, so you are not saying the same thing he did. [Here’s mine:](http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/articles/health-insurance/federal/when-can-a-parent-deny-medical-treatment-to-a.html) > [@](#): > > When the State Can Make Medical Decisions for a Minor Child > > State laws typically give much leeway to parents and allow them to make medical decisions for their own children unless their decisions endanger the life of a child. Many courts will allow a state child protection agency to make medical decisions for a child if: > > The medical community is in agreement about the appropriate course of treatment for the child; > > The expected outcome of that treatment is a relatively normal life with a reasonably good quality of life; > > The child would die without the treatment; and > > The parent is refusing consent for the treatment. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/83 "2013-08-14T14:03:14Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Smallpox was eradicated worldwide. Was that because the One World Government mandated vaccinations? No, but it was mandated in several countries, and it worked in others because of government-declared martial law and vaccination. And even when it was carried out by NGOs, those had to have government approval and were allowed to work within the country. So yes, government intervention was necessary in the eradication of smallpox. Not just in the US, but elsewhere. [From Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Eradication) ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/84 "2013-08-14T14:10:36Z")
Government assistance, I have no problem with. When you pass a law requiring invasive and risky procedures is when I object. > [@](#): > > Cite? But note that your second statement adds a point that jayjay did not acknowledge, so you are not saying the same thing he did. My cite is that I worked in a hospital, I was a clerk in a Newborn Intensive Care Unit. Part of my job was to assist the social worker in cases like this. You are right that the state can make decisions for a minor- but that is decided on a case-by-case basis, overturning a parent’s decision to refuse treatment. We had a case where a parent wanted to remove all treatment, and lost custody over that. But there was a court action, it wasn’t automatic. Edit- all that applies to my state as of the time I was working in the NICU. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/85 "2013-08-14T14:23:17Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Libertarians seem to want it both ways - no government-mandated “assaults” on their bodies, but freedom to assault others with preventable diseases without repercussions. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t tar libertarians with this brush. As a libertarian, vaccinations have always been one of the areas where I have argued a government mandate is justified. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/86 "2013-08-14T14:28:47Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Government assistance, I have no problem with. > When you pass a law requiring invasive and risky procedures is when I object. Several countries did, and it helped with the eradication of smallpox. Sure, vaccines carry a risk. But, overall, the side effects of the vaccine may be less, and much less frequent, than the risk of getting the disease itself. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/87 "2013-08-14T14:28:51Z")
The vaccines on the American vaccine schedule have an incredibly low rate of moderate, let alone serious side effects. Many vaccine-preventable diseases, OTOH, are quite risky. Hib, polio, diphtheria, hep b, tetanus, pertussis all have extremely high mortality and morbidity rates, especially in very young children. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/88 "2013-08-14T14:35:14Z")
Agreed. Chances of a bad reaction are around one in a million or less. But there’s 300 million people in this country, most of whom have had multiple vaccines- 50 or more, in some cases. That adds up to a lot of people hurt or killed by vaccinations, even though the injury rate is quite low. (As I’ve said when I’ve mentioned risk. It’s very very low, but non-zero) ETA- “bad reaction” is pretty nebulous. Lots of people get slight fever or similar side effects. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/89 "2013-08-14T14:48:05Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I’d appreciate it if you didn’t tar libertarians with this brush. As a libertarian, vaccinations have always been one of the areas where I have argued a government mandate is justified. Seconded. Lack of vaccination that results in spreading an illness constitutes an externality, a cost imposed on others that did not chose to incur that cost. Externalities are an area where government intervention is justified. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/90 "2013-08-14T14:48:41Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Agreed. Chances of a bad reaction are around one in a million or less. > But there’s 300 million people in this country, most of whom have had multiple vaccines- 50 or more, in some cases. > > That adds up to a lot of people hurt or killed by vaccinations, even though the injury rate is quite low. > (As I’ve said when I’ve mentioned risk. It’s very very low, but non-zero) > > ETA- “bad reaction” is pretty nebulous. Lots of people get slight fever or similar side effects. Cite for people being literally killed by vaccines, please? The CDC pretty much says [no](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm%5B/url) evidence of such. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/91 "2013-08-14T14:54:20Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I’d appreciate it if you didn’t tar libertarians with this brush. As a libertarian, vaccinations have always been one of the areas where I have argued a government mandate is justified. I’m glad you’re one libertarian who thinks so. Plenty do not (Ron Paul and many followers for instance, and [here’s an example](http://www.libertariannews.org/2013/07/17/how-safe-and-effective-are-todays-vaccines/) of a libertarian website promoting ludicrous, discredited antivax tropes.). From the [platform](http://ca.lp.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2011/03/Platform-of-the-Libertarian-Party-of-California-May-2009.pdf) of the Libertarian Party of California: _“we oppose any form of forced or mandated medication such as fluoridation of water, compulsory vaccination”_ Not sure how water fluoridation and vaccines qualify as “medication”, but it makes sense to people for whom absolute individual liberty trumps effective health policy. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/92 "2013-08-14T14:59:49Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > invasive and risky procedures Please stop saying that, or produce some credible statistics for the “riskiness” of vaccination, so we can compare them to the risks of the diseases that they prevent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/93 "2013-08-14T15:20:52Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > If your spreading a virulent disease to other people, its pretty clearly an issue that no longer involves just you and your doctor. again, it can only be spread to other people not vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/94 "2013-08-14T15:30:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > again, it can only be spread to other people not vaccinated. Again, that is not how vaccinations work. Please educate yourself. ---
**Author:** ![NotDeadYet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NotDeadYet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotDeadYet)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/95 "2013-08-14T15:38:21Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > Please stop saying that, or produce some credible statistics for the “riskiness” of vaccination, so we can compare them to the risks of the diseases that they prevent. Can’t be done. Those who “believe” that vaccines are risky do so in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. There are plenty of stats available for deaths related to those specific diseases being vaccinated against. What this debate ought to be about is the “Social Contract”. We give up certain personal rights when we choose to live among others. It’s people saying, “I won’t get the pneumonia vaccine because it violates my personhood” (or whatever) but then expecting there to be a hospital bed when they get it. If/when you believe that those rights you give up are worth more than what you get from living in society then you have every right to move to the middle of nowhere and live off the land. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/96 "2013-08-14T15:42:31Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > Please stop saying that, or produce some credible statistics for the “riskiness” of vaccination, so we can compare them to the risks of the diseases that they prevent. Please read what I write- I describe the risk as very low every time I use the word. But very low risk does not mean there is no risk. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/97 "2013-08-14T15:45:50Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Cite for people being literally killed by vaccines, please? > > The CDC pretty much says [no](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm%5B/url) evidence of such. Wow, did you read that page? It’s terrifying! I found this line so far, I’ll dig back into it in a minute: > [@](#): > > The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, **or death** , is extremely small. Bolding mine. Risk of death from MMR vaccine is extremely small, per your cite, but not zero. Edit- several of them have this line: “Long-term seizures, coma, lowered consciousness.” that’s worse than death, imho. But the question is ‘risk of death’, which again is very low, but not zero. ---
**Author:** ![NotDeadYet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NotDeadYet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotDeadYet)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/98 "2013-08-14T16:04:50Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Wow, did you read that page? It’s terrifying! > I found this line so far, I’ll dig back into it in a minute: > > Bolding mine. Risk of death from MMR vaccine is extremely small, per your cite, but not zero. > > Edit- several of them have this line: > “Long-term seizures, coma, lowered consciousness.” > > that’s worse than death, imho. But the question is ‘risk of death’, which again is very low, but not zero. **Please, please, try to get real.** It’s risk v. benefits that have to be compared. By citing the risks alone you are ignoring the big picture, that being death from measles far, far, far, far … outnumber reactions to the vaccine. Lets try this. Your doctor tells you that if your child were to get the flu there was a 1 in 1,000 chance of “very serious”, even life threatening consequences. But adverse reactions to the vaccine are less than 1 in 1,000,000. Do you take those odds? Forget about the potential harm done to children and adults with compromised immune systems that your child might interact with and spread the flu virus to. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/99 "2013-08-14T16:13:07Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Wow, did you read that page? It’s terrifying! > I found this line so far, I’ll dig back into it in a minute: > > Bolding mine. Risk of death from MMR vaccine is extremely small, per your cite, but not zero. > > Edit- several of them have this line: > “Long-term seizures, coma, lowered consciousness.” > > that’s worse than death, imho. But the question is ‘risk of death’, which again is very low, but not zero. I don’t know why my original link is not coming up, but here it is: [http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm) I also don’t know why you find this page terrifying. Let’s take the paragraph on the DTaP vaccine from there: > [@](#): > > [http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm) > > Getting diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis disease is much riskier than getting DTaP vaccine. > > However, a vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. The risk of DTaP vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small. > > Mild Problems (Common) > •Fever (up to about 1 child in 4) > • Redness or swelling where the shot was given (up to about 1 child in 4) > • Soreness or tenderness where the shot was given (up to about 1 child in 4) > > These problems occur more often after the 4th and 5th doses of the DTaP series than after earlier doses. > > Sometimes the 4th or 5th dose of DTaP vaccine is followed by swelling of the entire arm or leg in which the shot was given, for 1 to 7 days (up to about 1 child in 30). > > Other mild problems include: > •Fussiness (up to about 1 child in 3) > •Tiredness or poor appetite (up to about 1 child in 10) > •Vomiting (up to about 1 child in 50) > > These problems generally occur 1 to 3 days after the shot. > > Moderate Problems (Uncommon) > •Seizure (jerking or staring) (about 1 child out of 14,000) > • Non-stop crying, for 3 hours or more (up to about 1 child out of 1,000) > • High fever, 105 degrees Fahrenheit or higher (about 1 child out of 16,000) > > Severe Problems (Very Rare) > Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses) Several other severe problems have been reported after DTaP vaccine. These include: > •Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness > •Permanent brain damage. > > These are so rare it is hard to tell if they are caused by the vaccine. Note that last sentence. These serious risks are so rare they can’t even tell if they’re even caused by the vaccine. Compare that to the diseases in question. The d in the vaccines stands for diphtheria. > [@](#): > > [Diphtheria - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/diphtheria/DS00495) > > Even with treatment, diphtheria can be deadly — as many as 10 percent of people who get diphtheria die of it. Yikes. The t stands for tetanus. Tetanus is one of the vaccine-preventable diseases that is not contagious. That’s just about the only safe thing about it. > [@](#): > > [Tetanus - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tetanus/DS00227/DSECTION=complications) > > Complications of tetanus infection may include: > > Broken bones. The severity of spasms may cause the spine and other bones to break. > > Disability. Treatment for tetanus typically involves the use of powerful sedatives to control muscle spasms. Prolonged immobility due to the use of these drugs can lead to permanent disability. In infants, tetanus infections may cause lasting brain damage, ranging from minor mental deficits to cerebral palsy. > > Death. Severe tetanus-induced (tetanic) muscle spasms can interfere with your breathing, causing periods in which you can’t breathe at all. Respiratory failure is the most common cause of death. Lack of oxygen may also induce cardiac arrest and death. Pneumonia is another cause of death Ouch. Last is the aP which stands for aceullar pertussis. Pertussis is also known as whooping cough because that’s the sound people make when they have it. Pertussis can cause you to cough so hard you break a rib. The disease is most dangerous in young babies: > [@](#): > > [http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pertussis/fs-parents.html](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pertussis/fs-parents.html) > > About half of babies younger than 1 year who get the disease need care in the hospital. About 1 out of 4 hospitalized babies and children with whooping cough will get pneumonia (a serious lung infection). Whooping cough can also cause seizures (jerking or staring) and brain damage. So the diseases in question are far more dangerous than the vaccine. So dangerous that the risk of death from all three diseases is not minor while the risk of death from the vaccine is so rare we essentially can’t tell if it even exists. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145/100 "2013-08-14T16:17:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Note that last sentence. These serious risks are so rare they can’t even tell if they’re even caused by the vaccine. That last sentence refers the the very rare risks, the ones in the section marked “very rare”. Yes, overall chances of being hurt or killed by a vaccination are very low. Extremely low. About as likely as winning the lottery. But people win lotteries all the time. eta- > [@](#): > > It’s risk v. benefits that have to be compared. You can’t compare risk to an individual against benefits to the community. Apples and orchards. And yes, I would vaccinate my child as I’ve said throughout this thread. I’m pro-vaccination, please read my words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-able-to-sue-non-vaccinating-parents/666145.md?page=6)